Bloomberg Businessweek writes: Microsoft needs Natal—or whatever it's called by the time it goes on sale—to be a hit. The technology is inarguably cool, and is a rare bright spot in Microsoft's decade-old—and thus far mostly disappointing—push to move beyond PCs and into game consoles, music players, and smartphones.
The most notable reveal would perhaps by the requirements of the Xbox 360 console itself. While Microsoft has insisted since the original unveiling of Kinect at the Electronic Entertainment Expo (E3) in 2009, then known as Project NATAL, that the device would be compatible with all Xbox 360 consoles, the revelation of a dedicated port included on the newly redesigned Xbox 360 model has sparked rumours of incompatibility, which were quickly debunked.
Replies(12)
odd, i was led to believe it lacked an internal processor and so also needed a core to itself, if not 1-2 processing threads.
The article says nothing about whether the processor is internal or it uses the 360s.
Also, the notion of a dedicated port really lends nothing to the idea of older units being incompatible. I believe the kinect port is a custom usb port (think the original xbox controller ports) but one that will feed power and data.
Older models will require a splitter that will run off a single usb port (prob the back one) that will work for the data but not the power. That is why they keep saying it will have an external power for those systems.
As for the processor, combo of both makes sense. Using 360 cpu/gpu power to help calculate the finished product on screen along with the cpu in the kinect.
Remember people...this is not a cheap usb web cam (like the original live vision).
They say they are using 10-15% of one 360 P4 cores. I know that the Kinect we see today is a watered down version of the patented tech they bought and own. Maybe one day the " real " tech will be cost effective. It still is very impressive tech even without a super computer running it.
No, the previous artical said they removed a processor, but I would guess that it had more than 1 to start with. So it will have some form of processor still within it. Arm9 or Cortex M3, all dirt cheap now but powerful.
Does it matter? They showed Forza Kinect that looked amazing working with Kinect real time!
Are you just talking about how the graphics are able to look amazing while working with Kinect? If that's what you're talking about, ok. The game itself, though, well... I think I'll stick with the real Forza, with an Xbox 360 control pad. The limited-control Kinect Forza they showed doesn't look like it's worth any attention, in my opinion. Why would anyone want to control a car like that, with hands held out and holding onto nothing, with no control over acceleration or braking? Just seems totally pointless to me.
You guy know that the motion tech is from prime sense right? Please go to their web site primesense.com,and have a look at what they say the tech can do. It can read fingers well enough to type with each finger and can be used while sitting. No one ever said it has to scan the entire body to work. What we have seen from kinect so far is not all it is capable of.
Reading these specs and trying to compare them to PSeye is pointless, because they are different types of cameras and provide completely differnt types of info to the consoles (Kinect is a 3D camera and provides 3D images. PSeye is a 2D camera and provides 2D images). Per Primsense, the camera is capable of providing video at 60fps, but the 3D is 30fps. The specs for 2 players active is for full body scans. There are no specs given for people sitting and just using their hands.
This tech is obviously a work in progress and has yet to be fleshed out. I suggest all you N4G Kinect experts, research before you post you doom and gloom so you atleast have solid facts for you skepticism. You can also relax and see what M$ does with the tech insteat of pretending to know more that the people developing the tech.
The game was available for people to try on the show floor at E3 so yes it was real time. Wetter you like it for Forza or not wasn't my point.
That is up to the developer to figure out.
So pretty much the same spec as the PS Eye, although I thought the eye went up to 120 Hertz...
The eye goes to 60Hz i think. Regardless the eye should be capable to do any Kinect shown so far with less lag. (they revolve on a 2D axis and only use the depth tracking to separate players.) I am really disappointed by the tech and how it is utilised thus far.
More or less powerful we need to see the product.
So far it seem the pseye can do anything kinect can do.
2d 3d I not yet see the advantage.
no, the PSEye cannot do 3D tracking. Kinect can.
the PSEye does 2D motion recognition, Kinect does 3D motion tracking. they are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT things.
Going from alkaline to lithium was a significant step for batteries, but at the end of the day it is just a battery. PSEye and Kinect are kind of the same way. At the end of the day it is a game camera - with camera games.
@Sheikh Yerbouti: your example is not really on the same scale of difference as PSEye/Kinect.
a better example using batteries would be the jump from standard batteries to rechargable batteries. theyre both doing the same thing - being batteries - but one of them does things that the other one cannot possibly do, which is be recharged and used again. it does everything the standard battery does, and more.
Kinect does everything the PSEye does (2D motion recognition), and more (3D motion tracking). no amount of software updates can change the hardware in the PSEye, and the hardware is not capable of 3D motion tracking as it lacks infra-red.
Yes i see your point but how you guys feel about the PS3 can be said the same way.
The PS3 may produce better graphics and be more powerful then the Xbox360, but by the end of they day its still only a console. Also inferior to PC :)
... PSeye can do 3d as you say... even eyetoy... they used shadows and other stuff to recognize it.
Move is also 3d...
Lithium batteries are rechargeable batteries.
Kinect isn't a true 3D camera - it can't render a picture of your butt if you are always facing front. It makes an approximate 3D model using visual cues. The PSEye can do the same, although it will be cruder.
Plus, just because the technology is different, doesn't necessarily mean gameplay will be.
@lams12
Yes, you're right. Similarly Kinect will have some good games, different from PSEye, only if Microsoft makes them. But they haven't made games too different from the PSEye.
Which is what i meant from the start. None of the games they have shown so far could not have been on the PS Eye.
"Tracks up to 6 people, including 2 active players"
I think now its official that just 2 ppl can play at the same time.
Only room for two anyway when you think about it...
but it can keep track of six people during a game in regards to facial recognition. I think that's impressive.
I would love to have Kinect built into my laptop, so only I can get in even without a password. Why is Microsoft wasting this on the XBox again?
still couldn't play it sitting down. Honestly, some guys are so easily impressed by copy cat technology.
i was at the engadget show and kudo showed its 3d tracking and when two people where on screen......one person would be red while the other would be green.......but as soon as a third person steped into the camera view two people automatically turned gray and it couldnt read their movements well.
what i took away from that event is that the kinect is pretty kool but for right now it can only work with two people(they could still be working on it)
All E3 was a buzz about the various announcements, one of which was the official unveiling of Kinect (previously known as Project Natal).
While Microsoft is holding the pricing close to their chest until a later date, you can now pre-order Kinect
It will never sell! If they try to sell it for $149 it will fail! People don't like console add-on's !
Sound Familiar? Crow doesn't taste so good does it people? It's lighting up sales charts and if it wasn't for the new, sleek, slim, sexy Xbox 360S, Kinect would be number 1 all over.
Where's Move at again? ahhh yeah bottom of the list. Slap slap slap slap slap
its only:
$149.99
BUT IT QUALIFIES FOR:
this item ships for FREE with SUPER SAVER SHIPPING
O and buy it with Kinect Sports for only:
Price For Both: $209.98
How did I get 2 disagrees when I listed facts. How can you disagree with facts?
Anyways I am still not going to pre order this
Oh, just so you know. If you ever complain about getting disagrees on N4G and fill out another comment bubble, people will will disagree with you even more just for the hell of it. I know i did.
Anyway, when is Kinect coming out? If it's cheap enough, or i find a $99 arcade 360 i might get another one just to play Dead Rising 1 again.
Wow
Edit: Crapgamer, I've read your comment(slowly this time) and I think you're confused...no?
Is that sarcasm? People are pre-ordering this and it's selling like hotcakes.
Pre order= Not sold yet
A pre order can be canceled, so take it easy on the disagree.
The item is not sold untill shipped to the custumer.
If im wrong, please comment...
Personally I won't be pre-ordering : From Kotaku here http://kotaku.com/5565777/x...
"UPDATE: A Microsoft spokesperson told me after the publication of this article that the company is certain that Kinect gesture control will work for movies, ESPN and other "entertainment" features before the sensor is launched. As I originally reported, that is not an implemented feature yet. The spokesperson was not able to provide any update on the Kinect's tolerance of a person who sits while playing games."
So the only thing that looked mildly amusing for 10 mins - the media control stuff - is also not working (yet), and even if working, may not work sitting down.... So what we saw as MS's output from E3, is a bunch of choreographed vids.
I think a lot of pre-orders will be cancelled or a lot of people will have bought something they don't use.
r.
Sadly it will sell just as the Wii did. I hope that Microsoft sticks to hardcore though. From the looks of it, it's garnished completely for the casual gamers.
--Edit--
For the disagreer(s), what game is hardcore for the Kinect?
alot of people are about to be disapointed
i guess they think alot of new games will come to it
till then im good on it
There are that many people who would be sold on something that does not work. Yes I was at E3 and no Kinect did not work. It does lag really bad. And I'm not talking about a 1/100 of a second I am talking about 1/2-1 second lag.
If you ended up playing halo or any core game with this everyone would just suck. There are not going to be any core games, not even a 1:1 star wars game because the latency is god awful.
My Avatar continuously seemed to think I had jumped when I was only standing.
Seriously, I got flamed because I didn't have the perfect prices and added tax i'll fix that lets look at Natal.
Natal
150+taxes13% = 169.99
Or
40- (PSEYE)=Motion Control Games.
50+50 (Dual moves)- 50 if only needing one.
30- (Nunchuck)
---
120-170!!! :(!
Taxes+13%
135-192!!!!!
Move is the better deal depending on which games you are playing and if you have PS eye (No one on my friends list does). But comeon, thats too much to shell out for a controller, the price better decrease! Natal should of been 50 dollars to compete properly with the likes of Wii.
Both of these options are expensive if you ask me. How many people really have the PSEye? Move is really only the better deal if you only have one person playing. If you have a friend with you then you need to shell out for that second player.
I think that both Microsoft and Sony are crazy with these prices. At least with Wii the motion control came with it. For games like Brawl you could pick up a Gamecube controller for $15 from Gamestop if you wanted some classic control.
Dont forget that we still have to buy a compatible game for them. They'll probably sell those games around $40-$60 depending if it's casual or hardcore.
I only need to get one move and a nunchuck.
Funny thing is according to an interview with Don on GTTV its gonna be REALLY cheap, this is a cut I read on a forum:
Geoff - "ok, are we gonna like the price though?"
Don - "uhhh, I think you are gonna ..really like the price"
Geoff - "are we gonna be surprised at how low it is?"
Don - "uh, we sat through the other competitors press breifings and people were very please with our position, I like being with Microsoft this holiday.
Link:
http://www.gametrailers.com...
at about 12:30 mins I think
Link or it didn't happen!
Edit: You redeemed yourself with the link, but that "Don" is a VP of MS.
Anyway, I wonder if Blur will end up backwards compatible with Kinect? I saw the little ad was taking a jab at Mario Kart. Oh, and the Asian chick dancing...Hot!!! I bet she's the bomb in the sack, lol.
I like the guy but he seems really confident that MS will smash Sony this holiday season, I suppose it all depends on how much they want to put Kinect out for!
It depends on what games will support it properly and how useful it will be while playing said game.
even if this did sell fanboys dont see the point.
question isnt if its gonna sell, its will it work with hardcore games.
we all can see from the wii's success that if the company sells tons it doesnt mean that an onslaught of games for the gamer will come. no its simple stupid games that will sell and people will eat them up.
kinect will fail the gamer not the market.
MS knows how to lie to its consumers and advertise so that might work, but for the smart person who knows it doesnt work *the gamer* they wont buy it.....well besides the fanboy
IDG says: After putting Microsoft's Kinect motion-sensing camera for the Xbox 360 through its paces, I've come away a true believer--that it isn't for me, it's for my wife.
this is for my wife and kids. I will get it my daughters has already named the tiger cub in that animal game.
From what I can tell Kinect, Move, and Wii appeal to the casuals and kids.
My wife and kids would take any of them. Probably call them by the wrong names too.
I see more core games for Move from those 3, thats why I'm getting it
@Turin- I'm not getting Kinect, it's a waste of money. I'm not gonna yell at my tv to watch a video or movie, a controller is much more convenient
Mista T, I thought you were referring to Kinect. Just as well you edited your post.
It does look like Sony are going to push core games on Move more than I expected. I am still going to wait awhile to see if the games show up before committing myself to paying for one. But it does look more promising after seeing their conference.
@Mister T, can't argue with that. Sounds pretty sound logic to me. Maybe someone should tell Microsoft though.
not really, I'm a casual and I'm still buying Move.
Killzone 3, Heavy Rain, Socom all show that Move will still have the killer games to play and not just the crap casual 1s.
Although even the more casual games would be good since they are so accurate and would actually require skill to play.
Move will likely see use in many more core games than Kinect and Wii. Hell, Wii is probably used in more core games than Kinect ever will be.
According to some of the stuff I was watching on G4 yesterday, Killzone 3 is already running on Move on the E3 floor.
I was actually shocked at the amount of core games that Sony showed with Move support. I was dreading E3 cuz I thought MS and Sony both would have a buttload of stupid gimmicks to go with their controllers.
Good to know I simply wont need this. I thought the 360 was a hardcore console but there you go.
it had better appeal to somebody
at frjoethesecond above:
there is no such thing as a purely hardcore console anymore, each system has games that appeal to the casual gamer and both Move and Kinect are only going to make that fact even truer. Though it is also true that Movie seems to be trying to satisfy both the casual and hardcore gamer and because of that I see Move as the better choice, if you have a choice. That is not to say that folks wont buy kinect, some will, and with the install base of the 360 being very healthy, some may just be enough.
.
.
.Kinect showed nothing that the PSEye can't do. Kinect might be able to go above and beyond, however, everything they demonstrated isn't beyond PSEye's capabilities. add 'Move' and your options and experiences become 5 fold. M$ has the money to shove Kinect into homes, but that doesn't mean it will amount to much in the long run. if M$ wants Kinect to be relevant and successful then they better bring games that are genuine. unfortunately, aside from the dancing game, Kinect's "games" are pretty much just shovelware for now.
forgive my nativity but is there a major difference? are you insinuating that Kinect didn't show anything that even OLDER tech than the PSEye can't do? just wondering...
Where is the technical data that shows that the technology in Kinect is nothing more than, and can be done by, the PSEye.
If anything the Move is a Wii clone much, much more so than Kinect is to the eye.
@bviperz,
What proof do you have of that? The Wii started off going for the casual marktet. That isn't the case with Microsoft. Your argument is a moot complaint based on nothing. MS knows the core audience wants "our" games, and we'll get them. They are just bringing in more people, it is a busineess afterall. They can use it for core games as well, just give it time.
@dorkyfresh11,
So in other words, you don't have proof of initial claims.
You say that you want proof that it can do more, okay I have several examples. For starters can the PSEye do facial and voice recognition/control?
Does the PSEye have the ability to track (with the motorized head)a player. Or does it have the ability to do skeletal mapping and tracking. What they showed and what we've seen on the videos of gameplay; and from peoople actually on the floor playing it, proves otherwise. The real issue is that the so called "hardcore" gamers and fanboys, don't realize that or want it to fail just because it's Microsoft.
i'll agree that the Move is basically an evolved Wiimote and i have no problem with that. however, most sites tout about how much tighter and reactive the Move is over the other 2 motion control peripherals.
thing with Kinect is that, yes, it might be an evolved PSEye and it might be able to do MORE from a technical standpoint....but they haven't SHOWN it to do more. they've shown how accurate the Move is compared to the Wiimote....but Kinect hasn't shown off anything that the PSEye can't do or already hasn't done. you can talk all day about how much more powerful Kinect is than PSeye, but if you don't SHOW it then no one will believe you.
you want proof that Kinect can't do anymore than the PSeye? well......we want proof that Kinect CAN do more than the PSeye :P
Everything so far is static on a framed screen or on rails. It's another Eyetoy, admit it people. It cannot do realtime 3D without it scrolling forwards or staying still.
This however would have been REVOLUTIONARY in the arcade.
I bet people who will see the Kinect advertise never heard of PSEye before, most ppl out there dont have the knowledge. They see it and they want it.
They even buy it if they have no use for it, because the advertisement makes them think they need it.
R0me, unfortunately, you're right. the PSeye wasn't very popular, but then again Sony wasn't advertising it as the 2nd coming of the PS3 (that's the Slim). M$, however, put tons more emphasis on Kinect than they did with 360S. M$ knows how to use their money to get their products known, but what they SHOULD be doing is using that money to make more quality products and invest in better business tactics.
(I've been saying this over and over) If Kinect is successful, hardcore gaming on the 360 will be secondary, if that. Look at the Wii.
Yeah I'm not liking the direction Microsoft is heading. And it worries me even more that they didn't even show any new xbox exclusive core games...Well at least they've still got Halo, Gears, Fable and the multiplats.
Microsoft seems to be having an identity crisis.
Xbox360 used to be synonymous with hardcore online gaming. It seems that MS wants to shed that perception, and this has been going on quite some time with the addition of non gaming apps, avatars, etc. The previous mantra 'It's all about the games' seems to have been silenced.
Now don't get me wrong, I'm all about increased functionality and completely understand a company wanting to increase its marketshare and demographic, but MS at times seems to be a ship without a rudder. Perhaps we are seeing but a few pieces of the puzzle, only glimpses of a greater vision, and as more pieces are put in place it will all come together and make gaming sense.
I just hope that as they move along their journey, they don't forget or neglect their core audience, the gamers that have made the 360 and XBL the success they are today.
Who needs it? I'm guessing people who want to brush up on their dodge ball skills that's about it really.
He talks about the lack of support from share holders for the entertainment division of M$ and Natal not expected, by the business community, to sell like hot cakes. He does acknowlege however, that Natal should increase market share for 360.
I happen to disagree with the sales expectations. I see Natal selling much better than they expect. I think M$ might have found the answer to "touch" tech: "No touch" tech.
Microsoft is probably expecting Natal to become a standard entertainment feature in the same vein as HD or 3D. The idea isn't too far-fetched except that if Microsoft wants to push the motion sensing tech further they shouldn't strap it to the Xbox 360. They should push the tech for PCs and televisions like the article asserts.
Interacting with a television or other viewing device with only your hands or voice is definitely the future in my opinion. What I saw in the film Minority Report with John Anderton manipulating photos with his hands was so natural in terms of technological progression. Rather than using a mouse to click and drag a window or photo, Natal-like devices will allow us to directly control digital objects without the need of the mouse or some other middle-man.
It did it for video card, RAM, HDD, mother board and monitor companies, Ipad, Bluray and HD-TV's. It will do it for Natal.
Primsense even had the smarts to get out of M$'s way while they push this tech. Primse will profit more that they possibly could have imagine when Natal hits the market. Next year primsense will be in a much better position to sell they tech to TV and Bluray manufactures around the world. M$ will keep the Xbox and PC side of the business. It's a win/win for both sides.
@ Godmars290 above: I actually respect your sketisism, but I have been paying close attention to the red ball demos and no just the lack of lag, but how people react while and after play with the tech. You guys are missing the point. It is not that the red ball is great or sucks, it is that the tech works and works well with the game. Everyone who has played with the tech is ready to jump in, they are impressed. But my optimism iwas not formed by the reation or approval of others, I simply love the whole concept and beleive that if done right, it could be very successful. So far I see nothing but possitive indicators that M$ is taking it in the right direction and beyone. Ofcourse E3 will be hugely important. But there will be a whole lot more after E3.
It does. Case closed. Just give me my controller and you can hopscotch in front of your xboxes. Natal. If Microsoft wants to sell cosoles how about making good games (1st party exclusives) hard core gamers will buy them...right. Isn't xbox the console of choice for hardcore gamers...that's what xbox fanboys claim. Make some exclusives and/or drop your subscription fees. I could be wrong but trying to get all the casual gamers who own a wii and never play the damn thing probably ain't the best market to be aiming at.
Alot of my lower income friends and cheap friends won't touch xbox simply because of the subscription fees. That's the #1 reason on n4g forums people won't buy an xbox or act like they don't like xboxs.
Summary: better games and/or lose subscription fees=more hardware sales