Celtoys' Don Williamson says "different hardware achieves the same effects in different ways".
"In the long term, the idea of air-gapped gameplay is unfortunately losing out."
It doesn’t seem very practical. Crackdown 3 has shown relying heavily on cloud gaming can create a tulmultous development period.
Not necessarily. You're assuming that it's the cloud tech that caused the delay.
In any event, it would be the first use of it's kind so even if it did cause delays, that would be understandable, considering that it represents the first attempt of such tech at such a scale.
We can only really tell after the release of the game whether this will be worth adopting by other devs and worth the risk.
Crackdown 3 doesn't really look any different from its predecessors. Looks to play the same with slightly increased graphics.
I'm pretty sure the delay is related to the cloud. It's the only inconsistent variable.
And only how many years after being promoted as a key innovative feature on the XB1?
'Power of the cloud' I've heard that before! Of course it's theoretically possible. GeForce Now, OnLive & PS Now has demonstrated that cloud computers can run a full game for people, so 'the cloud' would definitely be able to boost the game of those who are already playing a game.
The problem comes from the business model, it would require an internet connection and not everybody has one or a fast one. Additionally consumers and media compare the specs of physical hardware, they want a console that delivers the full experience out of the box. So whilst the cloud can help, at this moment in time it would be a lot of expense for a subsection of the customer base.
"GeForce Now, OnLive & PS Now has demonstrated that cloud computers can run a full game for people, so 'the cloud' would definitely be able to boost the game of those who are already playing a game."
It isn't that simple. We are discussing the running of a game on a local machine and then when there is an incident, the physics in that scene are then farmed out to the cloud for rendering and then must be synced back to that game running on a local machine. A few milliseconds lag when a game is running entirely in the cloud is one thing. When it is split rendered those small time segments are a game killer. And consider how fast physics based situations arrive in a game with massive amounts of environmental as well as other types of destruction occurring. This is a wholly different situation with hundreds of more issues that running the entire game in the cloud.
We've heard this wait until this game comes and proves cloud for years now. They NEVER HAVE. Don't expect it to happen this time, Even if you have less than a 1ms latency internet connection that is not fast enough to help graphics. So the only thing left is the MUCH smaller player calculations. And no one has proven that to work without LAG. Which is why it has not worked up to this day.
The developers of crackdown 3 said 2 years ago that the multiplayer was finished and the delay was because they need more time for the campaign. So either they were lying or the cloud tech works fine. I'm pretty sure the delay at the end of last year was because Microsoft didn't want to tarnish the launch of the xbox one x because lets face it, it looked shit
Of course it’s the cloud tech. There’s nothing so ambitious about the Crackdown series that would cause such a long delay for the latest installment.
If there were no cloud tech the game would be out by now.
I think the cloud tech was responsible for delays and very extended development period up to the end of last year. However, I think the final delay was actually a direct result of the game being shit.
What a misinformed statement; CD3 hasn't shown anything of the sort.
The long development of Crackdown had everything to do with the CREATION of the Cloudgine Engine to drive Crackdown's online component, not it's reliance upon it. How can one rely upon something that doesn't exist yet?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wi...
Cloudgine is a team from Scotland who'd worked closely with MS and Realtime Worlds in order to get the idea to work. Honestly, building an engine from scratch for one game is never practical, but utilizing an already completed set of development tools for any future game is. This is why it's great news that Epic bought Cloudgine, because the, "tumultuous development period" won't happen with anyone liscensing UE4 to make games.
Thanks to Realtime Worlds, MS, and Cloudgine, cloud enhanced online gaming is finally ready to move into the mainstream with minimal effort from developers.
If you guys want to disagree with me, why not give a reason instead of attacking me as an individual?
Nothing I said was wrong:
- It's impossible to rely upon something that doesn't exist yet as Phoenix Up alludes to.
- MS, Realtime Worlds, and Cloudgine all developed the engine together during the creation of CD3, which is what took so much time.
- Epic would be pretty dumb to invest in Cloudgine if it has no value in gaming or requires "tumultuous development.
I don’t understand how this is even a topic that is still brought up as an end all solution. It’s been clarified many times that current tech is not developed enough to use it the way many assume it’s being used. Heck many still hear “cloud on Xbox” and think this...
http://n4g.com/news/1399058...
It was hard for many to understand then, and it seems to still be hard now.
Why wouldn't it continue to be discussed, you think Microsoft is going to invest in cloud technology and not further evolve what it means for the consumer? We have already seen it in action for Titanfall and used to continue taking in data for Drivatars in Forza. It was never advertised as an end all solution.
1,760 Sony PS3s were also used a cluster to calculate 500 trillion floating-point operations per second (500 TFLOPS). Which acted as a supercomputer.
Microsoft's Azure is basically using dedicated servers around the world to calculate things like physics which takes the burden off the hardware. This of course will only be applicable if you are connected online which is why games like Crackdown 3 will really only see the impact in multiplayer.
MS's investments into cloud tech had less to do with gaming, and more to do with what everyone - Amazon - is doing. Which is making money from storing and sharing the information of others.
Gaming - Crackdown 3 - was never nothing more than advertising point.
I stated in an article the other day this thing is not going to work correctly. The team that originally was working on this for MS has departed and are now with Epic Games. Of course I was promptly downvoted for my blasphemy. An occurrence which I wear like an honor badge.
http://n4g.com/news/2138712...
I think your reasoning is off on this one. We'll have to see how well it works when it launches to be sure, but here's how I see it:
If Cloudgine's technology doesn't work right, if it doesn't have any potential, why would Epic have purchased it? Also, it's been known for a while that Cloudgine would be open to all developers on all platforms when it was finished.
From 2015: https://gamingbolt.com/crac...
You are operating on the assumption their technology only has one method of application and Epic intends to implement it in the same manner as Microsoft.
We can even presume on the premise that Epic does want them for the same thing. Software and engineering can still fail in one location and then succeed in another later. Just because one company cannot get a system to operate does not mean another company could not make it work. Remember when Crytek halted their plans and later Onlive was a relative failure and then they were purchased? Now that idea functions.
You cannot ignore the massive delay in Crackdown 3, the silence and lack of demonstrated tech and then observe the departure of Cloudgine and think their implementation has succeeded and they have completed their work. Go back and read what I wrote in that linked post. A company handling such work would need to remain through AT LEAST the first major server stress test with a million people gaming simultaneously as well as the first several major patches since undoubtedly such new tech would not be perfect out of the box and would require several bouts of adjustment.
There is a reason they departed long before any one those things occurred and it does not bode well for cloud based destruction, etc in Crackdown 3. MS would be better off simply rendering everything in the cloud.
Maybe you were downvoted because that's a dumb thing to say. Why would Epic invest in Cloudgine if the tech doesn't work? :-/
@Tank,
You didn't bother to read or you are incapable of reading what I wrote. Paragraph 2 pal.
rif.org
Skimmed it now. Some real nonsense. You're a waste if time.
Cloudgine have been bought to continue their work on on-demand cloud compute, bringing advanced physics to Unreal Engine 4. That's what their statement says anyways, but I'm sure Morganfell knows more, and isn't just blowing his fanboy trumpet as per usual form...
@ morganfell
I can see what you're saying, but at this point I still think you're making too many loosely based assumptions. They have demonstrated their tech, although not much, and everything in my OP to you still applies so I respectfully disagree.
Since we're both doing too much speculation at this point, I suppose that we'll just have to agree to disagree and continue this conversation when new information sheds some light on these unknowns.
The public display of the tech shown by MS utilized a local host system on a closed network, not the internet. I have two systems running in my man cave and can do some relatively amazing things with them...locally. Not 24 people in a multiplayer game in real time with full blown physics calculations over a standard internet. Let that sink in for a second. The fact is they have never, ever demonstrated the tech with a live game that will be necessary to make the game function as claimed.
NOT ONE SINGLE TIME...EVER.
And let us be honest. MS doesn't have a sterling reputation for honesty concerning public demos as it is.
Think about that. They actually have not publicly demonstrated the actual capability required to fulfill their plan. They basically have two choices at this point. Release a title that performs nothing like they originally claimed or else wait and wait and wait until the tech matures to the point it is possible. Either way I am sure there are plenty of people that will throw themselves on a hand grenade for MS over this. They should be producing games, not promises.
Morganfell, you're right about the fact that MS has only demonstrated on a "local cloud". I didn't remember that detail (After all, it was how long ago? lol).
There is still a third choice though... the cloud assistance actually works but hasn't been shown yet.
There's a fourth choice too, which is it doesn't work well enough right now, and Epic will work to fix the engine so MS can patch Crackdown.
As I said, too many variables to know anything for sure, too many hypotheses to consider given the lack of information to go off of. At any rate, I apologize for forgetting how CD3 was demonstrated but thanks for clearing things up!
"There is still a third choice though... the cloud assistance actually works but hasn't been shown yet."
It doesn't actually work until we have seen a million people online at the same time gaming and the servers are working properly interfacing with millions of Xboxes and PCs providing the physics calculations and rendering assistance to a local game. And because of this the company would not have departed. They have to be there for the testing and the inevitable patching. New games with far less complicated code need a patch. Do you believe some innovative tech will be so well implemented the responsible company can leave before even a public test?
This is the point I am trying to get people to understand. Lockheed Martin doesn't built a billion dollar stealth aircraft that has never flown in the manner intended, give it to the government, and take their money and leave until there is some sort of proper test flight and evaluation. There will be additional work to be done. Quite a bit.
Do you think Microsoft were able to actually test this game and its system with a sufficient number of people and on their server architecture, work out all the bugs, and no one knows about it?
"There's a fourth choice too, which is it doesn't work well enough right now, and Epic will work to fix the engine so MS can patch Crackdown."
If it doesn't work right now then this goes to what I said above. They will wait and wait until the tech matures. That is fine. I actually have no issue with that except the game is being leveraged for sales and people are being led to believe "Soon!" Operating on the premise you are correct, their moving to Epic is a signal that the game will not be ready for two or three years minimum. If it were a quick fix of a few months there would have been no need for them to move. Also it isn't enough for this to be just an engine add on. There is a lot of server architecture with which to deal as well. A great deal of back end work. Would Epic be handling that as well?
Even if that assumption had some basis in fact we are looking at years to get this game off the ground. They may wait. Or they may just end up releasing a 2018 version of Red Faction. It is more than likely the tech as envisioned by MS simply will not work right now and MS has needed to cut costs. The game will either be shelved or released with locally calculated physics implementations.
Cloudgine has to continue generating a revenue stream and Epic bought them, and brought them on board to possibly integrate some features into UE4/UE5 or even to work with them on non-offloaded physics implementations. In order for any cloud based physics rendering to function it would have to be as streamlined as possible and this could pay off in huge ways if implemented at the local level.
EDIT: Another thing to consider. If Cloudgine just successfully created the first ever such implementation of this tech, would you really just sell yourself to Epic before it is even released? If it works it could revolutionize gaming. Why not wait until it is implemented and your company is worth 10 times as much. It actually sounds like Epic, who isn't the richest company around right now, bought them to get some of their tech because what they initially wanted to do has proven unfeasible.
Power of the cloud is there but the delivery speeds arent. If the speeds were fast enough then MS, Sony would just release a cheap box to stream the games and upgrade thier equipment. With net neutrality pretty much dead, it'll be interesting to see what happens with Internet speeds.
The power of the cloud was viable in the 1980's but you are quite right the delivery speeds for the vast majority of customers is still not viable.
For the US net neutrality is effectively dead and what is even more galling to the US consumer is the fact that the people who did this are insultingly laughing at you. If you can vote, take an interest (not a rabid one) in politics and definitely take this into consideration.
Remember in a democratic country you get the government the people vote for. By not voting you have effectively lost your right to criticize.
Even tho streaming(via cloud) is the inevitable future for gaming, it is still too early for it to become mainstream.
This whole Cloud talk by Microsoft was so ridiculous from the get go. I'm glad it was only the minority of idiots that fell for it. But wow you really did have to wonder just how low you could go with these people.
Which makes complete sense, from a development perspective.
“If you spend engineering time on two platforms rather than one then there will always be compromises. This has been the same since the dawn of computer games.”
We know this already lol
so multiplatform developers creating a game for 5-6 different platforms must launch shocking games by that theory?
And yet some have only asked, demanded, that all games be available on all systems.
Exactly, any mid gen upgrade produces it, it really isn't a shock or a revelation.
They can make a beautiful game for the X and "uglify" it for the One to increase performance.
Thats true only if its scalable down. If you make engine, which will be so so runnable on xox cpu, you will have hard times optimize it for xo. In the end you can have much much more ugly and much less functional game with much less quality on xo. But I think its simply more like pc development. And you have advantage, that you can target few configs - ps4, pro, xo, xox and you are done. On PC you have to cover lot of config combinations (2core slow cpu, old gpu -> 8core fast cpu, highend gpu and of course with combinations AMD/Nvidia/intel). If there is simply console game maker, it can be harder now to optimize to twice as much devices.
Key is to make scalable engine for all. And that is always compromise. Thats the reason first party exclusives look in most cases gorgeous even on weaker hardware than is mid pc machine.
I meant my comment as more of a joke. Developers can utilize a number of things to improve performance. I don't think any developer would make a game ugly on the base hardware.
Core game play is likely to stay the same either way. The graphics are generally the only thing that is scaled, because that's about the only significant change in power between the stock and the mid-gen. That core game play is going to be designed around the lowest common denominator. Same way it's been since cross gen ports were a thing, same way it's been on PC with the minimum system requirements for decades now. Mid-gen consoles aren't going to change this aspect of game design, particularly since they are not the place where most of the market exists for games to begin with.
It"s a five year old generation console—yeah, rationally undeniably over-priced.
Glad headlines are calling out the XBOX One X as being restrained by the XBOX One.
@William
They did, you just didn't notice or care enough to click on the articles and forgot...
@Will
They did. Somehow, MS didn't get this same recognition that Sony actually admitted to when discussing their new system.
MS has been blowing sunshine and rainbows up the media's a** since they announced the X1X, and gone on to obfuscate exactly what the development process would be and mean for the end product since they first announced the X1X. The media perpetuated this idiocy, and the fan boys lapped it up, all while many Sony fans said it would just mean that all we were really getting was better graphics, and occasionally better frame rates. Same thing that you get on the X1X.
You can't claim you didn't notice this stuff with PS4, because I recall discussing this aspect of how it was going to be an issue with you when it was about PS4. I know for a fact that I've talked about it with the X1X vs X1 on multiple occassions as I called you out on claims that the X1X was easily scalable so it wouldn't be an issue at all. In fact, I even think you've referred to how it was so different than the PS4 because of MS BS marketing of what the X1X would actually deliver in terms of improvements.
@will Sheridan easy because ps4pro was presented as an ps4 with more power a mid gen upgrade if u will no pun intended but xboxone x world most powerful console true 4k games just work to me was an undercover way to start next gen early so it was no need to say ps4 hinders the pro it's literally two ps4's combined
Ms repeat it over and over "it's not next gen" it's a more powerful Xbox one. Wtf will y'all not accept that? It does 4k and it's the most powerful console. Them advertising that means to next gen? Just stop.
No. Theres no undercover conspiracy. The Xbox One X is a mid gen console and is the most powerful console on the planet.
... as was the PS4 Pro before it, and the PS4 before that, etc., etc.
Always find it funny when people have to tell themselves and others that it's the fastest console ever made, or on the planet, as if that is something new! Don't get that behaviour. You like/love it? Then you don't have to regret it or think of silly things to say to make you feel good about your purchase!
"Always find it funny when people have to tell themselves and others that it's the fastest console ever made, or on the planet, "
If you actually scrolled up you'd see jlovelife said:
"but xboxone x world most powerful console true 4k games just work to me was an undercover way..."
I also find it funny that people can't stomach those facts that they have to state things like:
"... as was the PS4 Pro before it, and the PS4 before that, etc., etc. "
"Then you don't have to regret it or think of silly things to say to make you feel good about your purchase!"
Funny thing Is, I have a Pro not a X. Not yet . Sounds like you're the one with regrets though. In fact, it's painfully obvious
"Funny thing Is, I have a Pro not a X. Not yet . Sounds like you're the one with regrets though. In fact, it's painfully obvious"
He regrets what?? That Xbox don't have enough great exclusives? Or that Microsoft hasn't invest in first party studios over a decade? It's painfully obvious that you're in denial. It's okay to defend Microsoft but you can't deny the facts.
"I also find it funny that people can't stomach those facts that they have to state things like:"
But every time a new console gets introduced it's more than likely to be the "most powerful console ever made". It's a nonsensical statement. Factual yes, but completely silly to keep repeating it!
It's hilarious that people who can't win in a discussion always have to resort to "nah uh, you are the one regretting it, not me, nah uh!", makes you look like a 5 year old...
@septic, PS4 and Pro were the most powerful consoles for the last 4 years. Didn't matter then did it. It was games not resolutions from you lot. Now its resolutions not games. Flip flop lol.
@Aenea
"It's hilarious that people who can't win in a discussion always have to resort to "nah uh, you are the one regretting it, not me, nah uh!", makes you look like a 5 year old."
Who are you fooling? What discussion have you 'won'? What do you think you were doing when you commented here saying:
"Always find it funny when people have to tell themselves and others that it's the fastest console ever made,"
You hyprocite- regularly out-smarted yet you cant recognise when you get clapped in arguments.
"or think of silly things to say to make you feel good about your purchase!"
Think of silly things, like stating facts? Its obvious it causes you no end of consternation with the 1X being more powerful that the mere mention of that fact sets you off.
"makes you look like a 5 year old..." Blind to your own behaviour.
@dragonscale
" Didn't matter then did it."
It did matter- and I said so and I can prove it. If I show it to you will you be quiet and acknowledge that?
Septic you are like a kid that always have to have the last word, sometimes being the bigger man is not saying anything at all but you wouldn't be capable of doing something like that.
Former Lionhead developer Don Williamson apparently figured out which studio is building Fable 4 and he commented that it's an "interesting choice" by Microsoft. He also said no studio based in Brighton could take on such a massive task, which would rule out Electric Square and point to Playground Games.
"He also said no studio based in Brighton could take on such a massive task"
We have no idea how Fable 4 will be. If State of Decay 2 and Crackdown 3 are any indication, its possible it could look like a more cleaned-up version of the 360 games to save on the budget. I just can't imagine MS building a truly ambitious Fable 4 at this point unless its a next gen Xbox game
If it is that Playground Games project, it's been described as "large scale" and at an early stage, which could mean a release in 2020 as a launch title (possibly cross-platform like Breath of the Wild?).
Playground games knows how to make a good looking game. Horizon games are some of the prettiest out there. And if the game is massive, that hardly speaks to a low budget game.
"I just can't imagine MS building a truly ambitious Fable 4 at this point unless its a next gen Xbox game"
Guess we'll have to wait and see. Seems way too premature to state that the game is made on a budget.
I'm actually hoping it looks like fable 2 with better animations and detail. The only way I can see such a massive task is if it has a MP portion that's really demanding.
@Septic Surely they can use the engine for Fable Legends? The beta showed it works and 'all' Microsoft need to do is build a single-player campaign. If they started after Legends was canceled that means 2.5 years of development - enough time to be ready for Christmas 2018!
Didn't PG say they were working on a new IP though? I can't remember if it was rumored or they specifically said it was an open world RPG, but I do remember something about it being a new IP.
This was with their newly opened 2nd studio as I recall. Their first studio is still thought to be working on FH.
Maybe my memory is fuzzy here, because I know a lot of stuff was going around in the rumor mill about them at the time, coupled with a lot of discussion on if they'd stay exclusive to Xbox, which was exacerbated by them saying they weren't prohibited by going multi-plat.
For the sake of discussion, if PG is still working on FH, then their 2nd studio just recently opening, then I can't imagine Fable 4 would come anytime soon. OTOH, if PG isn't doing FH, then that means they're working on 2 concurrent open world RPGs. That seems like a very unlikely scenario.
They just released the Xbox X, I doubt a new console is coming this soon in the same way I doubt a PS5 release anytime soon.
And we don't know if this game is in the early stages, for all we know this game could have been given to a studio the minute Fable Legends was cancelled.
Remember before last E 3 that rumors of Playground and Electric Square were developing games for Xbox.
I think it's safe to assume that these games have already been in development for a good period of time.
@ImGumbyDammit
Sony said they were working on PS4 as soon as PS3 released. They never stopped designing and throwing things on a board as they went along. Not that they would already begin prototyping or anything expensive. But, products like these are always on the drawing board. They already said they're working on PS5. Even if they didn't say they were, it's common sense that they are. They just aren't gallivanting around trying to make more headlines to attract attention. You don't need them to say it. "only that Microsoft itself admitted they are working on one".
Quite possibly. It would be more than welcome, Fable has been gone for far too long.
I guarantee its gonna be at E3. They've probably been working on this for some time now, if its that far off it wouldn't have leaked already. The fact that it leaked means that it must be close.
The one x seems like it will hole for years or so where it will become the base model and a new upgrade will be available.
Xbox one x isn't even available in all countries where Xbox one or Xbox one s are available. First they need to make Xbox one x available in all of MS marketing countries. In the mean time they can do all the prototypes for their next launch and start the hype though.
This is good to know. To be fair to those developers listed, wouldn't you prefer if Fable 4 was made by a premium developer?
Really hope Playground is the dev taking over Fable. Think they would do an awesome job.
I agree. For me horizon has set the bar for arcade/open world racing games and putting them in charge of fable could be an amazing move by Microsoft.
Agree. They have done wonders with the Forza Horizon franchise. FH3 is my favorite racing game. And a great open world game as well. Definitely think they have what it takes to make Fable great again.
Great looking OW racing games and quality. And look at Guerilla Game taking on the OW TP RPG coming from linear first person shooters, let's just hope it turns out that good for them.
They had said they were working on an non-racing open world game, then later it's a RPG. So, seems likely it's them.
But it was also rumored, or stated(I can't remember which), that their open world RPG was a new IP. That would exclude Fable if they're still working on FH, and it's highly unlikely they'd be working on two concurrent open world RPG's.
Now he just have to see what Table is like without a wishful thinker and possibly accidental liar at the wheel
The title would have you believe something else entirely.
"GamingBolt asked Williamson about the differences in the PS4 and Xbox One GPUs along with their ROP counts. How does these numbers figure into practical scenarios?"
"Data such as this really doesn’t matter as different hardware achieves the same effects in different ways. Coupled with different engines being built to take advantage of different hardware peculiarities, the numbers really only make sense if you want to build graphs of random data and strenuously imply one is better than the other."
Fact is, neither one can run all games at 1080 60FPS. Get used to it.
I knew it's a gamingbolt story before i even click on the link :))
A very polite way of making excuses.
It does matter in sales when people decide which system would offer better quality as far as 3rd party games are concerned.
I don't know about others but I always prefer when games are full 1080p rather than 900p or 720p.
I didn't buy a 50inch TV to play games at low resolutions.
I Might sound arrogant but you have to get your money's worth.
Money doesn't grow on tress.
If it "doesn't matter" then why are we constantly seeing 1080p on one and 720/900p on the other?
Graphics don't matter that much to me personally but this article must be a joke.