Of course he's lying!! Why wouldn't he be!

Pathetic.. Saw it coming a mile away... Spin fanboys spin!

"I realize that just because the GPU has 50% more compute units than the bone's doesn't equate into 50% better performance."

lol! This is unfreaking real. The level of denial by xbox users is off the freaking charts. xD

And read the rest of the thread to understand why Penello is being a deceitful little *****.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum...

PS4 vs XBOX One: Developer Comments Compiled
http://www.neogaf.com/forum...

Sony is not the one that has been saying it!! This guy is blaming sony for what random Devs have been saying.

well im sure this MS employee is completely unbiased in his writing...right?

Is Albert Penello the system architect? Because he really needs to STFU.

Sony isn't saying the PS4 is 50% more powerful, the DEVELOPERS are. So no matter what you try and explain your way out of, you can't, because the games makers are noticing the difference.

Also that bandwidth comment is complete BS. He's comparing peak bandwidth, of ESRAM and DDR3 as the peak possible performance. Bandwidth doesn't work like that. The ESRAM is on 32MB, so data will have to be cut up into 32MB, passed through that bottleneck, which will slow it down LOADS, and then to the 8GB DDR3 RAM, which runs at 68Gb/s. The PS4's entire RAM pool can run at 176Gb/s in peak performance. PS4 wins, easily.

@gaffy & others:

I didn't see Penello refer to what Sony said, and use that as a basis. If anything, he is just talking about mis-information that is thrown around by some (not necessarily Sony) and giving examples of how numbers can be misconstrued.

@HammadTheBeast:

"
Our peak ON PAPER is 272gb/sec. YOU DON'T CALCULATE THE PEAK LIKE THAT BY ADDING IN THE ESRAM WITH THE DDR3, THAT'S NOT HOW IT WORKS,"

That is exactly how you compute bandwidth as long as you have simultaneous access. Think of water pipes, if you have multiple smaller pipes that combined gives you more water than one big pipe, you indeed have higher bandwidth of water coming through. It doesn't matter that it comes through multiple pipes. This is exactly how your memory works.

What is often not discussed though is the equivalent of the length of your water pipe. You might be able to get a lot of water at once, but if your pipe is very long it will take you a long time to get that initial water (or data), causing a delay.

This equivalent to latency, something DDR3 has a big advantage over GDDR5.

Think of an online match, even if you have gazillion Mbps, a small Mbps can have superior experience with minimal lag, whereas a large Mbps can have massive lag. The simple answer is online gaming is dependent on latency i.e how long it takes to get the data, and almost zero bandwidth need. The amount of data being sent and receive is minimal, but the time is the killer factor.

That is why a lot of these numbers on their own is at best a very very very rough measurement and often times skewed towards marketing as opposed to real world benefits.

The sony Fanboys commenting on the system power here are complete embecile, and know absolutely nothing. But here are exact figures.

40.67% gpu difference in favor of sony (since x1 upclock, prior to thats it was 50%) (853x12)vs (800x18)

9.375% cpu advantage in favour of x1 (thanks to upclock- prior it was even) (1.75 vs 1.6)

Ram in terms of bandwidth sony have the advantage but in terms of latency x1 have the advantage. Sony takes steps to minimalize latency disadvantages and x1 introduce es ram to achieve 140-150gb/ps (realistically) vs sony's 176 gb/ps. I know Panello says differently but numerous tech sites describe it in this way.

I also understand that x1 have larger buses- 30gb vs sony's 20gb. I beleive panello mentions this when he talks about the cpu communicating with the gpu at 30gb/ps. Sony is 33% slower in this regard.

X1 has 8 gb of flash to help os run and load apps very fast compared to sony's standard hdd from which apps would load from.

MSOFT confirms that x1 have numerous sub systems and customizations that are unknown to us and supposed to reduce the power gap. They announced they have 15 processors in the system (at hot chips) and is rumored that some of these processors can be used for graphics which would further reduce sony's power advantage.

Honestly i believe msoft- A lot of ppl on forums are implying the ps4 will make xbox one look like a wii u- or ps4 is a generation ahead of xbox when that is not the case.

Take the wii-u for example- its 2-3x more powerful than ps3/360 but do game3s look 2-3x better than the multiplat counterpart on ps3 or 360? No but there are small differences. Look at the wii- its also a few times more powerful than ps2/xbox and gamecube and you get the same results lol.

is it more powerful...is it not more powerful....?

I dont give a damn. just give me the games and i will decide for myself.

@nuke - by that logic the Xbox 360 has a higher bandwidth than the Xbone because the eDram runs at 256Gb/s. So the Xbone is actually a downgrade. We all know that isn't true, so please cut the BS.

@strife - CPU speed isn't confirmed. Original rumours stated 1.6Ghz, since Feb it has been rumoured to be 2 Ghz.

I believe the ESRAM bandwidth will be used primarily for textures, obviously. Since textures use up most of the memory and takes up most of the space.

It's crazy in how the likes of Hammadthebeast talk so much about the architectures of these consoles yet still don't have a clue of what they're talking about, even just the basics. But makes more sense when emotions easily take over.

My question to all of you nay sayers.

Has Sony been confident enough to post anything of relevancy compared to what Microsoft has been doing these past months with Xbox One?

That goes to show they have nothing to show but specs.

The only thing that Sony has and why their games look great is because they have better first party developers. NOT SPECS!

If you can't consider that fact, goes to show how much you know. Microsoft this gen are going to focus more on first party studios fairly early with Black Tusk Studios.

@gaffy

Yes, but in Xbox One's archetectural panel video they stated clear time and time again that the ESRAM will take full advantage of that very purpose and why i't s an "upgrade" from the EDRAM.

Again, you make yourself look foolish.

@gaffyh:

"@nuke - by that logic the Xbox 360 has a higher bandwidth than the Xbone because the eDram runs at 256Gb/s. So the Xbone is actually a downgrade. We all know that isn't true, so please cut the BS."

Which also means the Xbox 360 is more powerful than the next generation PS4! /s

Totally proving my point, that these carefully crafted specs completely disregard other factors including that the Xbox One has more than 3x times the amount of RAM in ESRAM than eDRAM than the Xbox 360.

As Penello said, there are more to just pure numbers measuring very specific things ignoring other facts.

MS heavily engineered their system to handle bottlenecks and they have been far more open about what their system is compared to the competition (Sony) hiding behind a few carefully crafted specced numbers.

@gaffyh

Your info is outdated the only reason that 2ghz cpu rumour is there because the cpu ships standard as a 2ghz cpu- both sony's and microsoft use the same cpu. Since then we learned newer rumors pointed to a downclock to 1.6ghz for less heat, run quieter and as a result runs on lower power.

Sony's system does not allow for an upclock to 2 ghz or their gpu to be clocked above 800mhz. why?

1st the system is small compared to x1,as a result parts are closer thus retaining more heat

2nd the cooling system is smaller and as a result would run louder if chips are upclocked.

3rd the power brick is inside the system opposed to outside and as a result adds more heat.

These 3 key characteristics will not allow ps4 to be clocked higher without seriously jeopordizing the components of the ps4. Due to the x1 efficient component layout- it allowed them to clock their chips higher.

@strifeblade

You are correct. The ~50% more CU power in the PS4 is FAR from the whole story.

But the mindless fanboys are going to keep screaming "50% more powerful" because that's what they want to believe. They're just as delusional as the Xbox fanboys who believed that misterX guy about the second GPU thing.

I believe that the PS4 is more powerful, I simply reject the simplistic thinking of these fanboys that says "50% more compute units equals a 50% more powerful console". Herp derp.

If that were true, it would mean my PC with an HD 7950 was over 55% more powerful than the PS4, simply because my HD 7950 has 28 compute units vs 18 in the PS4. This clearly is not the case, as differences in APIs, OS overhead, architecture and other hardware and software differences can all dramatically affect the final performance of the machine in question.

We don't have all the details and even if we did I wouldn't be able to accurately say exactly how the performance of each console relates to each other. What I do know is that the fanboys saying "the PS4 is 50% more powerful" don't have a clue what they are talking about.

For now, I'll listen to people like John Carmack, a man who I respect and who has always shown himself to be knowledgeable, rational and fair.

In his words:

"I haven't done really rigorous benchmarking [but] they're very close and they're both very good," he said.

"It's almost amazing how close they are in capabilities, how common they are."

"And that the capabilities that they give are essentially the same."
http://www.computerandvideo...
http://www.forbes.com/sites...

I don't see what he said wrong, the info is all right here http://www.eurogamer.net/ar... I mean reading it and what he said seems legit for the most part. Ps4 on paper is more powerful but alot of the 50%, 40% stuff is BS according to all sources and most say X1 has some strengths that were previously unknown and nobody's completely sure how it all works. Which is again why putting a hard % on performance difference is foolish at this point but of course fanboy engineers/n4g experts will tell you they know everything.

@ Starchild why dont you also listen to the GOW Judgment dev that also claimed the PS4 is indeed that much more powerful

Wow, the level of stupidity and ignorance shown by half the people above me is astounding.

First of all, to all the MS fanboys claiming better latency on the X1. Its not gonna matter, because when it comes to graphics, bandwidth is king, PERIOD! not latency, FACT! Why do you think all high end cards have GDDR5 and not lower latency modules. When it come to the highly parallelized architecture of a GPU, bandwidth is what matters most (keeping all the pipes feed) not latency. Get that through your thick dumb heads. Latency is not going to matter in graphics processing. And GPUs are design to better handle the higher latency. Than a serial CPU.

And to strifeblade, dont call people "embeciles" if you cant even spell the word "imbecile" right, cuz it makes you look like an imbecile. Also the Wii U is 2-3 times more powerful than the PS3/360!? What the f*ck have you been smoking? Tell Nintendo to send me some of that sh*t. There goes all your credibility. Its obvious you know less of what you speak of than even NukeitAll

And PowerVR, you obviously know even less than Nuke or Strife, geesh! its getting dumber in here

And p.s. to Nuke, the 360s eDRAm had 256, wait for it, gigaBITS, you catch the word "BITS", not bytes, as in 1/8 the size of BYTES. Translated into bytes equated to 32GBytes, not 256GBytes. You get it? Or do i have to further spell it out for you?

And these are games machine first, and multimedia devices second. And in a games machine graphics is very important/king, and for graphics, bandwidth matters way more than latency. So the higher bandwidth of the PS4 will better benefit developers then the lower latency of the DDR3 in the X1. Also, answer me this. If latency is so important to a games system, then why didnt MS go with 1866MHz DDR3 RAM? it has even lower latency than the 2133Mhz RAM they went with, since latency is obviously so myuch more important according to MS fanboys. Also people, we are talking nanosecond differences here. What's that going to translate into on a app on screen? half a sec? less? We are talking billionths of a second. Now stop spewing sh*t y'all know nothing about just because you's wanna defend your beloved MS.

And btw, anything that is that latency dependent can just be put into the CPU's cache (which btw is way faster still) anyway, as long as its not to big. And what are they going to put in the 32MB eSRAM? AA? how you gonna fit gigabytes worth of textures into a 32MB buffer.

But with all that said, I do believe that games will be developed for the lowest common denominator and therefore, we will barely notice a difference on multiplats. Unless Im wrong and devs give the PS4 version higher res or higher framerates, or more effects. But i doubt it, for the sake of parity, cuz you know the pople with the inferior version will whine about

These debates are fun sometimes, but they do get old too. All this arguing when most games will look very close probably isn't worth it. The truth is, if the Xbox One is a little more powerful than the PS4 (doubt it), it's not going to make me want it more. I am choosing PS4 over the XB1 due to the games that appeal to me, the Instant Game Collection and all of the other little things that make up the whole experience. Will we see differences in some games, sure, but most will be close.

Yep, that post is frankly quite embarrassing, seeing how most of it is bullshit, anyone that has any clue about how computers function can spot this immediately - I would recommend everyone to actually read the replies in the thread after his post, they explain why Albert are spewing poop!

@dante

Way too much anger from someone talking about video games. Latency is not an issue with GPU's. That is true. GPU'sare not linear in the way they compute. This is why all the top cards use a gig or two of GDDR5. In a traditional PC setup GDDR5 is not good for the CPU since latency is an issue. CPU's run much more efficiently using DDR3. Neither console is setup like a traditional PC, they have a combo CPU/GPU that share memory pools. Sony choose GDDR5 and Microsoft went with DDR3. If they both accessed that memory the same way, the GDDR5 in the PS4 would be much faster due to the increased bandwidth as far as graphics go. We really have no idea how latency on the CPU side is going to be addressed. Microsoft choose to go with DDR3 with their pool. Great for CPU's but slower than GDDR5 for GPU's. They addressed this with the inclusion of eSram. They also included 8 gigs of flash memory and access the memory pool a little different than the PS4. It's a much more complex solution, but it addresses both sides of the CPU/GPU to maximize efficiency. We have yet to see how this translates to games. That is the job of the developers. They will exploit the strengths of each system.

As for your games are all about graphics rant, that couldn't be further from the truth. The Last of Us is the latest example of a triple a game we have on consoles. Graphically it is a very nice, but the story and execution are what make it great. A game that is pretty, but has no substance is a very hollow experience and not one remembered well.

@Dante

Sorry dante, i guess if i do not spell imbecile correctly therefore i am one, not the hundreds of baseless comments i see from the fanboys next time i will spellcheck. Thankyou for contributing, truly enlightening.

The wii u is more powerful than current gen- 2 gb of ram more powerful gpu, and the cpu is held back by the tablet processing but its solid when compared to ps3/360. Some sources are conflicting. Most sources point it being on par or more powerful- it just has not translated to games (some multiplats look slightly better on wii u) since game engines are difficult to port to the wii u. Again u like to throw around baseless comments without support in an attempt to discredit me. Its pathetic that you cannot contest my points (they are facts) yet choose to get me on a spelling error and point out a wii u comment? Sorry i am not intersted in the wii u or if my info of is dated on the subject as ps4/x1 are my true interests and researched heavily into the matter.

Your not a hardware engineer so you are not fit to comment of the efficiecy of latency or lack there of. I stated the FACTS, you put the SPIN. If latency did not matter then why did sony take measures to reduce it? lol. at the end ddr3 is still faster and we have yet to see how that will translate into multiplats. Get it through your thick skull. We don't know anything for certain until they are out.

@starchild

yeah, I'll believe carmack since he's made oh about 5 games his whole career that ended up on a foreign system. The guy's been a microsoft tool for years. Jesus, he even looks kinda like Bill Gates.

@dantesparda

"And PowerVR, you obviously know even less than Nuke or Strife, geesh! its getting dumber in here."

Yeah buddy, nice one. So can you at least elaborate on that?!

Sorry for being too concise, don't want to make a mess with lil' fuzzy heads blowing up.

You calling the eSRAM a buffer or how lower latency is not a HUGE contribution of keeping the pipelines fed, is a huge indicator in how much you know (vewy little).

The eSRAM is more like a "scratchpad memory" built on chip making it very fast. Big advantage is you don't have to deal with latency issues with GPU/CPU RAM and bottleneck software implementations...BIG DEAL, since lower latency provides MORE "SUSTAINABLE" BANDWIDTH! Therefore keeping "pipelines fed".

So eSRAM is SUPERIOR to GDDR5 and GDDR3 for vital applications (textures) and why it points DIRECTLY at the GPU. Can you tell me otherwise?! I doubt it!

"And what are they going to put in the 32MB eSRAM? AA? how you gonna fit gigabytes worth of textures into a 32MB buffer."

See what I'm talking about?

That is why they have DMEs to compress and scale those "render to textures" and leave the main memory for whatever the hell developers can think of to add to. For those of you that don't know what that means...GENIUS DESIGN over BRUTE FORCE!

Don't you think they would have known better that GBs of data wouldn't fit into 32mbs of space. My goodness some of you are just a bunch of mooks on this site.

EDIT:

So yes, it is indeed about bandwidth. And since bandwidth has more so to do a lot with textures it is then textures that are important to solve and why Microsoft makes a huge deal about the eSRAM.

But again, it's also all about first party developers taking advantage of the hardware which are a few in many third party developers.

Features, features, features...features. Microsoft dominates features because they target casuals, not the easy consumers who are easily swayed by BS specs.

Also, how everyone miss the point of the silicon dies is either because they don't understand or they don't even want to consider it. The former more likely.

@stevehyphen FINALLY!!! Someone with some sense on this site. Everything you said...absolutely true. There's hope for N4G yet!

Oh come on, what a useless debate.

Who really cares what numbers and what engine tool a system is going to have.

Both consoles' games look great and are very realistic.
I don't really see much of a difference between the 2 of them.

The real deciding factor is the games they will have and how good they are.

Your right. As I said earlier the PR for M$ have no idea how the xbone works. They make up numbers, and out right lie about the product they are trying to sell.

This is nothing new. M$ PR team have been tying to clean up this mess that they created since the announcement of the xbone.

They should be puking their guts out from all this spinning that their doing.

@ vulcanproject
I see what you're saying and I agree with you, what I don't understand is how this guy gets called out because he doesn't know all the details of the machines, but you have the full picture and all the details? Almost every PS zealot is in here stating he is dead wrong because he doesn't even know everything about the PS4, so I ask how the hell do all of you KNOW everything about both machines? If I understand your point it's, someone in the industry can't possible know or comment about the gap in power between the 2 consoles, but all these armchair warriors on N4G can, and have such a superior knowledge on these consoles, right?
How can you write a comment bashing him for not knowing all the facts when there is no way possible that you could either? It's like contradicting yourself in the same sentence. I know better than to expect anything else from the sad souls on this site, but it’s still hard for me to understand how anyone could miss this flaw in their arguments. I’m not saying this guy is right, but if he can have his facts this wrong while being an industry insider, and you get so mad about it you have to go on this PR bash mission, what make ya’ll so sure you’re right? It’s like a parent yelling at their child for being too loud. “STOP SCREAMING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!”

@scott112

Where in the article did he blame sony. In fact penello said he is not disparaging sony in any way. He is trying to clear up misinformation about the two consoles.

Yes he is p.r, but every company has p.r, you guys should just relax, will only time will time, and that is about two and a half months time.

Maybe the guy is thinking it's the 1990's, but sound cards don't offload much of anything anymore.

There USED to be a time where having a sound card would make a difference, those days have long since past. 1/20th of a percent, of a single core in a multi-core setup...woo hoo.

Most people would realize that the more hoops you make developers go through, the less likely devs will jump through them. It's going to be more difficult and time consuming to code games for the Xbox One. Unless the dev takes the time, and the time to do it well, they are severely crippled with bandwidth on the xbox one. They're asking all the devs to put significantly more time coding a game just to be able to access the lionshare of it's bandwidth.

Some won't bother with it and just code for the DDR3 bandwidth, some won't be able to, some won't do it well. The Xbox One eSRAM is like PS3's cell. Not quite the complexity, but extra work that will negatively impact games when it doesn't go as planned on most games whereas the PS4 game bypasses the entire problem and all of this focus can go to other areas.

What most people should expect is the GDDR5 bandwidth will easily and always be available whereas it's a real chore and a bunch of extra legwork to maybe achieve a similar level or so bandwidth.

So imagine if the 360 had the PS3's cell coding problem, and the PS3 had the ease of coding of the 360. The answer would be Uncharted 3 and TLOU, etc type games would be the norm for the PS3, and the 360's games would look like CoD 24/7.

Because that's the setup you basically have now. Easier and stronger, versus harder and weaker (and more expensive).

@JamieL:

"I see what you're saying and I agree with you, what I don't understand is how this guy gets called out because he doesn't know all the details of the machines, but you have the full picture and all the details?"

I was about to say this. Penello is the guy to know more than anyone on this forum. Yet people on this forum knows more and is convinced the PS4 is sooo much more powerful taking it as truth when the news swing in that direction!

Once the opposite is said from a well known source that the Xbox One holds it's own, it is disproven by simply saying nobody, but Sony knows what is in their console.

Oh, the irony!!!

Sounds more like you read the Vulcan's argument however you want .

Not getting in the middle on who's right or not , i have of course my opinion but it's getting silly and pointless .

However Vulcan was telling you "At a very basic level he says their CPU is faster- does he know PS4's clockspeeds? He said he doesn't, only a couple weeks back."

Vulcan says that when convenient he doesnt know the specs , and yet claim some advantage over an hardware , he just said he doesnt know about .

That's not convincing at all .

"Penello is the guy to know more than anyone on this forum."

Pure B.S there . He himself backed into a corner had to admits he'll need to check some infos and come back at some folks later on , with or without support from tech staff .

He's a PR staff , and a beotian when it comes to those subjects , compared to a select few posters that are massively into such tech ... because of their passion or work .

While its still a fanboy haven for all factions . Stop trying to pass gaf as a comedy central like n4g . It's a community with its issues , but also professionnals from various fields . Plenty are easily pro xbox , or vastly prefer a PC as well , there just isnt no easy way to pull some wool and PR BS over their eyes .

It nonone knows these specs from sony then where are the fanbiys getting there specs?

Unfortunately JamieL you fell into the trap of not reading what I wrote correctly. Why try and spin my comment to say that I don't know everything about the machine and use that as an argument against me when all I did was clearly outline the points where his post was flawed, and we KNOW it to be flawed.

I don't know PS4's clocks for sure, do you? Neither does Penello as HE said as much.

Yet here he is claiming more CPU performance. You think that ISN'T something he should be criticised for???? You think we should just nod and agree and not point out a rather horrible flaw in his reasoning????

If he can't get his own stats right about memory bandwidth? Thats not a mystery, or secret voodoo spec, thats just simple maths he failed to cite correctly.

This is just one example of his 'work' on Neogaf.

I can't help it if you can't see the wood from the trees, Penello claimed a bunch of stuff he either admitted he knows nothing about or is KNOWN to be inaccurate (See the difference much??) and thus opens himself up to major criticism from me (and a host of people on Neogaf.)

I have no clue why you think what I wrote was hypocritical. If you can point out what I specifically said that claims something about the machine in this post or something that is factually incorrect then go nuts and point it out.

Unfortunately for you, there was nothing there. At least read replies properly instead of inventing something in your mind.

There is damn good reason to rubbish what he has claimed, between the FACT that he admitted to not knowing about Sony's hardware and the FACT that he writes incorrect bandwidth figures you'll still lap up what he says?

More fool you.

Ok vulcanproject I guess I “misread” this,

“because he knows much more about Sony's custom chipset with its secondary processor like he apparently knows their finalized clocks”

You know what it is? Sure he doesn’t know that, but you don’t know it either, and you don’t “know” what exactly the XB1’s parts are capable of. None of us do.

Then this “He can't say if the eSRAM can ALWAYS read/write simultaneously. It probably can't.” Biggest part and I do agree you kind of covered your ass with “It probably can't”. You don’t KNOW it can’t, but the rest of your tone sure seems to be so positive about itself.

This is my point; I don’t care if everything out of his mouth is wrong. He doesn’t have all the facts period. I get that, but none of us know everything about both systems, and we won’t until they both come out and SHOW us what they can do. I just don’t see how anyone can bash him for coming with talk when he doesn’t have all/the right facts, when they come with the same PR bull$hit from the other side like they have all the facts. Like I said it’s HYPOCRITICAL, no matter how much lipstick you put on that pig.

"You know what it is? Sure he doesn’t know that, but you don’t know it either, and you don’t “know” what exactly the XB1’s parts are capable of. None of us do. "

Errr wasn't that the POINT OF MY POST? Glad you finally read it.

Penello can be an engineering genius who knows every transistor on Xbox one, but when he admits to not knowing PS4's CPU or sound capabilities but then claims Xbone is better and faster there we should sit there and lap that up???

Its not hypocritical if I 'cover myself.' Thats called understanding I can't know all the facts and edging on the side of caution, something he didn't do. I wasn't the one claiming a bunch of nonsense like Penello so easily dismantled.

I admitted I don't know PS4's CPU clockspeeds much as Penello doesn't, but I wasn't the one claiming Xbox one's CPU is faster than PS4's.

No, it was him claiming things he admits to not knowing. He was the one opening himself up to criticism if he was wrong, not me.

Thats because he is clearly a mouthpiece and not a technical guy and they weren't his notes.

How on earth you think thats hypocritical of me? Please, go get yourself a dictionary and look it up. Read carefully the finer points of the English language. Then come and explain again.

You are saying we can't bash him even if he doesn't know the facts and makes spurious claims because nobody knows everything about the systems.

I doubt anyone can ever know everything about these systems. At what point are we allowed to criticise someone?

So you're saying he should be protected because of his ignorance even when he puts out horribly flawed claims? Again. More fool you.

God forbid you claiming all earth's oceans are red with purple stripes and me saying hang on, they aren't.

No doubt I'll be accused of 'hypocrisy' because I can't possibly know everything about the oceans. Kinda besides the point huh?

@ vulcanproject

Well said