the PS3 20G will by far be the cheaper alternative to 360 + HD DVD. There's no way they'll sell the add on for less than $100. The frikin' wireless adapter is $100. My bet is on $199 maybe $149.

an xbox fanboy once said to me that stand-alone bluray players cost say, $800. And he claimed the bluray drive that went into the ps3 was worth like $100. So he said cos it was cheaper, it would "play like s***", i think his words were.

But for the xbox 360..."it's going to be the cheapest HD-DVD player you can buy"

Lets cut the crap, cos i honestly dont think either will be crap. I think that they are both great additions to the consoles and is a key to console progression. HD formats are a great thing to have, period

My guess is the 360 premium will drop in price to 300 dollars. My guess is before the launch of the ps3 there will be larger hard drives available and the 20 gig hard drive will drop in price. My guess is the premium with the hd dvd player will cost less than the ps3 20gig version. Sure they haven't announced anything yet. And they shouldn't give sony the heads up. If they announced price cuts, ect...people would hold out on getting a 360 till the price cut takes effect. If Ms follows their own formula from last gen. They will drop the price of the 360 after the year mark. So...November and beyond the price should drop if they repeat what they did with the xbox. So my guess is the premium at 300 and the hd dvd add on at 150 will keep the price of the 360 combo less than the 500 dollar ps3. As far as online being free for the ps3. lol....We will see when they make all the announcements regarding their online pricing. Also....the seagate merger means that the hard drive cost will go down soon for the 360. Remember MS has stated many times they have some big suprises up their sleeves and they WILL NOT announce it any sooner than they need to. Sony copies too much. If they announced it now. Sony would make moves to match MS's moves. Nope....let it be a surprise. Good Job MS. And a tri layers hd dvd disc holds 45 gigs one sided and 90 gigs duel sided. So the blu ray/hd dvd data holding debate is mute. Sure blu ray can have multi layers. But it can go both ways. Right now hd dvd outperforms blu ray in terms of quality on several head to head comparissons using the same movies. Good Job MS. Give Gamers what they want.

But what you can't say is that those ps3 owners will buy blu ray movies. NO ONE can say that. Psp's movie format failed miserably. People still buy dvd's like crazy. So yes. It MAY have a bigger base for that format. But it far from guarentee's blu ray movies sales will reflect the base of ps3 owners. Hd dvd players and movies are selling well...RIGHT NOW. We will see if ps3 owners help boost the blu ray sales. I'm doubtful just going off of sony's track record with new formats. UMD's, ect.... Just because you buy a psp don't mean you will use sony's format. Thats why UMD's aren't being sold in many stores anymore. Very bad sales. Same goes for blu ray. Just because they MAY get 6 million ps3's sold if all goes WELL. a big "IF". It far from guarentees ps3 owners will buy enough blu ray movies to make it succesful. We will see. But what we do know for a FACT. Is every single hd dvd add on thats sold..."WILL" be used to buy hd dvd movies. Sales of HD dvd add ons will directly reflect the users intentions to buy the movies.

YOU SAID....."There will be 6 million bluray players sold by March 2007. 12 million at least by end of 2007. How many HD DVD players will have been sold by then?".

I SAY......"You sure are going off of what Sony hopes to have sold by march and the end of the year. lol....But Sony is the same company that said there are 100 blu ray movies available now. LIE. There are 24 blu ray movies available now. I'm sure we can point out all the lies and massive exaggerations that Sony says on the regular. I have said it before and I'll say it again. I will be shocked if Sony can sell 3 million by the end of 2006. Everything would have to go perfectly. No shortages, People would have to be well receptive of such an expensive piece of gaming hardware. It is all a big Question. And we won't know the answer till the end of the year. But realistically I think they may have 2 million sold by the end of the year. I base my opinion off of the low yields for the cell and the blu ray delays. With the 360....You know what you get. A cutting edge gaming machine for 400 dollars. Sure you can compare that to the 600 dollar ps3 and say the ps3 offers more. But I don't want all the extras that do not effect gaming. If I want to watch hd movies...I should have that choice. For 400 dollars I want Pure Cutting edge Gaming. For 600 dollars you get a all in one wanna be computer, wanna be gaming system, wanna be blu ray player. You pay for what you get. So its an expensive gaming machine and a cheap blu ray player. With the 360 you get a gaming machine closer to the sweet spot of 300 dollars. And you know you are getting the best gaming technology and software on the market. The cheapest hd dvd player out now is 419 dollars and offers better video quality than 999 blu ray players. Thats crazy.

Very Very TRUE......

2010 we will see blue ray just in a museum. 2011 next gen console release with build in hd-dvd and videogames in 3D without glasses smile i saw this in my crystal ball.

what you dont understand is microsoft could care less if they sell alot of hd-dvd add ons. Hell if both formats fail microsoft will be happy. and thats 4 million ps3s to 10-12 million 360s. the space on those discs arent needed for games due to microsofts excellent dev tools. ever heard of xna and directx? if not real deal can school you on that. Theres also technology called procedural synthesis that drastically reduces space but at the same time increases quality of the graphics. An example of procedural synthesis can be seen in oblivion. The game is huge(16 square miles I believe) and is packed with loads and loads of content(over 200 hours worth and that doesnt even include the main story i believe) and is beautiful yet is only 4.2gbs. The only benefit of the extra space of the blu-ray disc is that it will allow devs to be more sloppy with their code and sloppy code takes up more space. Also as time goes on games take up less space anyway for devs become more accustomed to the hardware. And we dont know what the ps3 online will be like so everything u said in regards to that is speculation.

xbox live only costs 36 dollars now and will probably go down even more by christmas time. Also free is never better than what you pay for.

I love when Sony fans parrot the lies of Sony exec's, word for word.

Yes, the online connectivity through PS3 will be free. But even Sony execs have hinted as to possible tier pricing, where basic online functionality would be free but certain, "enhanced" online gameplay could have a fee. Sound familiar?

Also, Sony has left the online pricing to the individual publishers. Therefore, if you buy an online multiplayer game like, "GIANTENEMY CRABS 2", the publisher could charge you a monthly/annual fee to play. So, potentially you could be nickle-and-dimed to death by various publishers just to play online.

I'm sure I'll read arguments against what I wrote. Let's all wait and see.

How many of Sony's promises over the years have turned out to be flat out lies? Answer: Too many to count.

I don't have to buy the damn thing. I don't want a hi-def dvd player. It's expensive, it won't be very apparent of a difference on my tv only very large tv's notice the difference, as explained over at cnet.

I have a question for PS3 people though. I've read that when blu-ray or hd-dvd loads up movies, that it takes up to a minute before you get to watch it. Will that be true of games as well?

So lets say November comes around.

HD dvd has already proven head to head its better quality video over blu ray on several sites.

The 360 drops to 300 dollars for the premium.

The core drops to 200 dollars

The hard drive drops to 50 dollars and they release a 60 gig hard drive for 100 dollars.

So A premium 360 with a superior hd dvd add on and 60 gig hard drive will cost less than the 600 dollar ps3 with an inferior blu ray drive and inferior gaming console. Watch and see what MS does in November/December. And yes...you can renew via xbox live or walmart for a year live 36 dollars. And you don't have to worry about certains games charging extra for online play. EA and others due to server maintenance. MS got 80 billion in the bank and a superior console and a year head start with a lot more flexability with pricing. It should be fun to watch unfold.

36 dollars xbox live for a year

Video chat

Game invites

Leader Boards

Friends lists

Lag free gaming

40 dollars wireless controller

20 gig hard drive will come down in price when ps3 launches. I assume 50 dollars.

Hd dvd drive will be 100 to 150 and better quality video vs blu ray. Tri layered duel sided HD dvds hold 90 gigs of data.

The best developement tools on the planet. XNA and Direct X 10.

Overall price reduction of systems at the year mark. Ps2 dropped 100 a year after launch, xbox dropped 100 a year after launch. Its not a stretch to assume the same with the 360 with costs coming down with the chips used in the 360.

Do the math and no matter how you figure it. MS will make sure the 360 is a better value than the ps3. Thats a guarentee. MS wouldn't have it any other way.

I have seen a comparison of the two formats, HD DVD wins hands down. Sony will try hard to cover up this fact, but people who care know that HD DVD is better, for half the price. Period. In the future, Blu-Ray will catch up in quality, but never SURPASS HD DVD, so even then, at half the price, HD DVD is the winner.

Very True ! ! ! !

Let’s start with the new features not included with the original xbox:
1) live anywhere (pc's, cell phones, and 360's unite to make 100 million gamers connected)
2) First to use Standard wireless controller
3) Live Arcade games
Live Marketplace...free demos of just about every game so you can play before you buy it and in many cases play for months before a game even gets released, as well as movie trailers (and of course, game content downloads, but that’s not new).
4) Xbox live gamer pictures- respresent yourself with a picture
5) Video chat
6) Game invite...(you can be playing a game and when your friend is playing a different game you can send him and invite while you are playing and he can instantly join the game you are playing.
7) Sharing your pc files with your console to stream music and pictures to the system- play any music you want while playing games without using hdd space! This can also be done with ipods and other portable media devices.
8) Use the 360 as a Windows media center receiver! Watch HD movies and tv through your 360 by connecting it to a windows media center pc.
9) Xbox live diamond card- free to all users of xbox live- this program gives you far more than enough discounts to make up for the yearly $50 payment for xbox live over and over- NOT ONLY DOES THIS MAKE XBOX LIVE FREE, BUT MAKES THE SERVICE SAVE YOU $$$! For example: offers such as $20 off of theme park visits, rent 1 rent another free at movie gallery, save 10% on any target.com purchase…the list goes on forever!
10) HD-DVD add-on OPTIONAL and will most likely wen bought, add up with the 360's Premium package price to equal the price of the lower end ps3.
11) Advanced Compression Tech (available only to M$). This new compression tech eliminates the need for a nextgen dvd for storage, Oblivion for example was originally over 30GB, but this advanced tech brought it down to around 6GB without reducing quality nor leaving out content. -Who needs a new format such as Blu-Ray or HD-DVD for gaming?!

Decompression is very very CPU intensive, which is why almost an entire Xenon core has to be dedicated to decompression. Dedicating something like 15-20% of the 360's power to make up for storage capacity limits is pretty bad. (I say 15 to 20% since each core on the chip is dual threaded; dual-threaded cores have around 50% more power than single-threaded cores since it's still one CPU trying to compute all the data).

Great thing about the PS3 is that Cell is designed to read and process decompressed data straight off the disc without the need for physical decompression. If Oblivion was originally 30 Gb and decompressed to 6 Gb using special techniques then why are the PC and 360 versions roughly the same size? If you claim that MS decided to share their 360 tech with the PC version then you'll also have to answer why the PC version has higher resolution/more detailed textures. I mean, if the 360 has such good compression techniques and all.

And to Real Deal: HD-dvd hasn't proven itself to be superior, and don't talk about the greatness of VC1 video on HD-DVD since Blu-ray supports that as well. If you read enough Blu-ray player reviews you would notice that the big problem is not the quality of the new Blu-ray players or even the discs; it's the TVs used in the reviews of both formats. Having an inferior HDTV hooked up to these formats is guarenteed to make the picture look cruddy. You have to learn to stop spreading FUD around.

And 36 dollars for Xbox Live? I just checked at Gamestop and it's priced at $50 a year. Do you get a subscription discount?

"21.1 - You believe in discounts?
DJ - 9 Minutes ago
Spending like $200 in order to save $50 dollars is kind of...questionable. Sorry, but I've never believed in those kinds of 'discounts'. Has nothing to do with games, it's just a money thing."- wtf? if its stuff u r alredy planning on getting, then grabbing the diamond card for the dicount is a sweet deal. U obviously have no idea wat kind of discount u get (each of the with no strings attached). I have alredy begun to enjoy the benefit of the diamomd card for buying games- save 10% on all purchases from target.com. all u do is sign in at xboxlivediamond.com and choose a vendor, that has stuff u want, and it will apply the discount as u purchase. Theres nothing to it.

the 360 STILL has the advantage. 3 core processors vs. 1 (ps3's cell). dsp's/spe's are inappropriate for gaming - they're just floating point processors. And oblivion is a port from pc to 360, both versions are identical wen displayed on same exact monitors.

You Said......"And to Real Deal: HD-dvd hasn't proven itself to be superior, and don't talk about the greatness of VC1 video on HD-DVD since Blu-ray supports that as well. If you read enough Blu-ray player reviews you would notice that the big problem is not the quality of the new Blu-ray players or even the discs; it's the TVs used in the reviews of both formats. Having an inferior HDTV hooked up to these formats is guarenteed to make the picture look cruddy. You have to learn to stop spreading FUD around."

I say....."hd dvd and blu ray have been compared on many web sites and they all conclude that hd dvd has much better picture quality over blu ray. It is what it is. And they use the same tv to compare and I have never heard anyone say what you claim about them using cruddy tv's. lol....Stop making excuses for blu ray.

You must conciede that as of now...hd dvd outperforms blu ray. Until that changes there is no need to continue this discussion. You know I can post up 3 or 4 links to blu ray vs hd dvd comparissons if needed again. Otherwise let it go. As of Today hd dvd's look noticably better than blu ray.

And at Walmart its 36 dollars for a year subscription to xbox live. Thats all that matters. If other places sell it for more. Thats on them. The smart move would be either get it from Walmart or do it through your xbox live directly.

If you can get an old XBOX 1 12 month subscription: Those work on the 360 also! I just bought two for 40 Euro's for the coming years!

Is giving away the cheap ones cause maybe it has less features on the HD DVD.

I really like how MS is handling this, giving us a choice. If you don't care about HD movies, that's fine, you won't have to pay extra for it. If HD-DVD fails, it doesn't hurt them hardly at all. If Blu-ray fails though... Sony's screwed big time. It's not like they can just take out the blu-ray player, because then they can't play old ps3 disks.

Also, I thought blu-ray and DVD were incompatible, right? Then how can the ps3 play old ps2 DVD disks?

its probably crappy, and whats the poin anyway, there is no way the drive will cost less than $200, and it doesn't even have a hdmi slot what a joke.

drive plays blu-rays,dvds, and cds so it can play ps2 games.

I bet TheMart would be saying how good Microsoft was if they included an HD-DVD drive built in with the xbox 360. I could just picture it 'oh this is such a smart move by Microsoft. The disk will help create massive life-like worlds and will be beneficial to all gamers in the long run'. Something like that anyway.
THE SIMPLE FACT IS, IT'S JUST BECAUSE IT IS SONY. YOU WILL DENY IT, BUT YOU ARE JUST THE SAME; A FANBOY, A CLEVER FANBOY I'LL GIVE YOU THAT, BUT A FANBOY ALL THE SAME.

Thing is Toshiba and a few other companies have HD-DVD players on the market... since there are different Hd-players from these companies that support the HD-DVD there is only one company with a Blu-ray player on market rightnow and that is Samsung, Firstly the comparison isnt Fair because there are about Four different brands of Hd-dvd on market vs. the one blu-ray... secondly Quite a few said that the difference between A few of the HD-DVD and the one blu ray on the market is marginally diffenerent. the reviews are mixed... especially when it's been there was a manufactual error with the Samsung Blu-ray player which is why the visual quality was down graded. keep in mind that even with this as a back draft for the blu-ray... the samsung Blu-ray is one of the first players to feture the technology BD Live which allows for live updates to to BD hardware through firmware... it was also state that Samsung realized this and is already working on a firmware update to correct the the errors on the few that are already on the market, and will see into the ones that havent made ship to retailers So, the argument here really isn't a dispute of visaul quality, because i can gaurantee that the Next batch of Blu-rays and Hd-dvd that come on the market from it's other manufacturers will either match each other in vision quality or one will trump the other... personally it's too early to judge one and drop the other because a a simple fault that can be fixed... similar to the same thing that happened with the earlier released 360 with the over heating problem and the PS2 that had disc read errors, they were easily fixed so ... stop complaining and choosing sided because one likes sony and the other likes MS... thats being Baised fankids. every company has it's strategies... Sony Knew that The early adopters will by the 500 or 600 dollar ps3... and thats alot of hardcore fans non the less and i can tell you that i believe there is more than 6 million hardcore fans blu ray will penetrate well into next years because of this... if microsft sees it fit to make profit they'll pull a move to counter... it's anyones game... and much to early to proclaim winners and loosers so sit time and watch

is meaningless during Launch because there's so much demand. Early adopters see the true value of the product and are willing to pay much more than the retail price to get it. The 360 was being sold for up to $1000 on EBAY during it's launch, which is just insane. Sony's known for having slightly higher prices than the competition, but they also back up those prices with high quality products, and consumers know this. By March '07 there will be around 6 million Blu-Ray owners throughout the world, and there's no reason for those owners not to try out the capabilities of their systems.

In fact, Sony might as well include a Blu-ray movie with every system to get people exposed to Blu-ray's visual and audio quality (like the Spiderman UMDs included with the early PSPs). The added cost to Sony would be nominal, but the value to the consumers would be fairly high.

HD-DVD drives on the other hand are completely optional, which is the problem. How many people here with 360s are planning to buy the add-on? The number is pretty low, and even fewer will actually buy it, especially if the price ends up being above $100.

PS3 titles will not be limited to 8.5 Gb, and already games such as Unreal Tournament 07, which is already passing the 13Gb mark, are taking advantage of the space that Blu-ray offers. People who hate Sony constantly claim that 8.5 Gb is enough and that developers can simply utilize 4 or 5 discs if their games ever hit 40 or 50 gigs. But the problem is that not only does that cost more for publishers (blu-ray discs are almost the same price as DVDs) it's a big inconvenience for both developers and consumers. The games that would suffer most would be RPGs and free-roaming games for reasons that should be pretty obvious. The 360 is probably going to be fine with using a DVD drive, but if you look at statements from PS3 developers they absolutely love the amount of space they have now. The fact that they're enjoying the freedom that Sony is giving them is proof that even though Blu-ray is being 'forced' onto us, it's for the benefit of both developers and gamers alike.

$1000 for a 360 on EBAY? and so? how much do you think some people gonna pay for ps3 on EBAY?
$1000,$15000,$2000 if it will be needed.
For the BR space why most of devs says they will release games on dvd? maybe because it had more than needed space and dvd discs are cheaper?
You guys want at any cost justify the purchase of a ps3 that you guys only says BS. If you want to buy a ps3 buy dude, no one will stop you. And yes BR is being "force onto us" because if hddvd wins ps3 owners will stay with a white elefant and so many will be regret for buying a crap that they didn´t need and has no future.I know i will.

I know i had stayed.

With there renvue unlike Sony there more rich then ever so it doesn't hurt them as much at all if Blu Ray fails or not which by the way it wont knowing that alot of morons out there are discrediting Sony all the time when they make something new.