CRAPPY GAMES .... tisk tisk .... not sure whay you consider a NON-Crappy game, but 360 has some very nice games. I hope the PS3 does well ... I want one ... but to bash the 360 "JUST BECAUSE" .... is really kind of silly.

HDDVD and Blu-Ray are obsolete right now. I can't see either one of them start to pick up. Most people (including me) do not really care that we can now watch our movies in 1080p or 720p. Oh wait, I don't even have an HDTV yet! Maybe in 5-7 years it will start to pickup, but definently not now.

You will be seriously dissapointed with your PS3 until about 2008.

All these crappy games the 360 has will be ported over to the PS3, and they will magically be great games!

I have a 360 and everytime I hear someone saying how bad the games are, I laugh. I cant keep up with the games. I just bought Oblivion last week. Just finished GRAW last week.

And for people like aricha who keep saying "why arent you playing your 360 then? If its so good?" Well, alot of us work, and I cant really bring it to work with me, I can read about gaming on the net, which is what we do while we wait for 5:00, so we can go play 360.

I am at home enjoying Next-gen gaming in High-def, unless the yard needs mowing.

it´s marketing.They delay again so betabluray don´t came out till November when they launch crap,delaystation so people buy delaystation insted of betablueray players, people will say,look ps3 is betablueray and is cheaper, i will buy one instead of betablueray. It´s how $ony plans to win HD DVD war.It´s all marketing.

i know that we didn´t bash ps3 and all, but when sonyfans stop bash xbox fans and xbox i start treat sony fans with respect if they respect all xbox fans and xbox.

i know that we shouldn´t bash ps3 and all, but when sonyfans stop bash xbox fans and xbox i start treat sony fans with respect if they respect all xbox fans and xbox.

in my country we used to say: he eats were he likes.

if the 360 really rocked ur world u wouldn`t frequent ps3 news making useless comments which by the way wouldn`t stop me from gettin a ps3..why do u fear that much.. and the truth is without us u will be bored

TheFart, you're just a complete idiot and a joke. Also, very jealous that you are broke and cant afford the PS3.

Let me tell you what a brainwashed FANOBOY you are, you are defending your BROKEN 360. It broke on you, after 6 months. Thats how brainwashed you are. You are the most idiotic person here. You are literally a complete fool, that even though you got a piece of crap hardware, which broke on you after 6 months, you are still defending it. Come on, arent you tired of being a blind fanboy.

Just ran across info that the PS3 is not delayed because of BluRay. The BluRay is delayed because the PS3 line is absorbing all available laser diodes. However, this is from a source of unknown reliability.

AND ANYONE ELSE WHO HAS NOT NOTICED YET.

Many topics on this site are "CROSSED" topics. So for example, I am NOT visiting the PS3 area of this site, HOWEVER ... this topic

"Blu-ray launch delayed in Europe" is accessable throught the PS3 side of things as well as the XBOX360 side of things.

THE SAME ARTICLE WITH THE SAME COMMENTS are viewable and accessable from BOTH SIDES OF THE FENCE.

So if the topic is indeed what this one is "A CROSS-OVER TOPIC" you can see / read / and comment from either the PS3 section "OR the 360 section ..... it does not mean that 360 fans are in the PS3 area or Visa-Versa.

some are TRIPLE CROSS-OVER (PC/PS3/360)

I can't believe some of you still did not realize this.

SO stop with the "Why come here and bash if your not a fan and stick to your own console section" CRAP !!

"I AM NOW IN THE 360 SECTION" ...

Keep watching below for the big surprise (smell the sarcasm)

** POOF **

Only a few clicks and VOILA !!!

Now I am in the PS3 section, but guess what .... my comment will also seen if you visit this topic from the 360 site.

PS3 fans are dumb as dirt...

Don't try and pretend you didn't make the mistake.
Come on bro ........... :-)
Rather than being so defensive, try having a laugh from time to time.
This is not meant to bash, just inform.
And if you read mine, I clearly stated I used this article as an EXAMPLE.

I love my 360, and look foward to my PS3 ... I like to come to these sites for INFORMATION ... not because I hate my 360 and don't want to play it. Anyone who can't pull themselves away from their console for a bit need some SERIOUS HELP.

How many parents are going to buy a 600$ console for their begging kids at christmas.

If PS3 doesn't drop to atleast 400$, Sony will rot and die.

#23 i was agreeing with you. I hate it; when Sony fanboy's tell me to get out of PS3 land when it's Industry news and even if it wasn't it's people's right to read the news on what they wan't.

Lost planet is the most under-rated game in history the game is truly Next-Gen, a real modern day Contra. I just thought i'd say that to anybody that hasn't seen the game video or played the Demo.

JIN KAZAMA
quit talking about my broken 360 as if MS deliberately broke it! what is your point? I played the hell out of my system, the drive door broke, I was very sad, I spoke to MS and after arguing over paying $129, a manager called me today and offered a full free repair. end of story dipsh1t!

So yet again, I will be playing lovely next-gen games while you sit with your wired controller and play god of war for the millionth time.

when PS3 arrives, after its delays, and after all the shortages, in January 2007, you will pay $600+ for your system with its n64 graphics and half-assed online service. you will probably play god of war from the PS2 on it alot. you will be disappointed, but by then i will be too busy with Gears Of War and Saints Row to notice.

I have had a 360 since launch. If it broke right now, I would still want to play my games. They ARE good games in my opinion. My OPINION. The customer service for the 360 has improved greatly over the original Xbox of which I bought three in 6 months.

OverG SUCKS. I am not sure who was hyping it besides the guy at my local GameStop. Gun was a dirty, dirty port. But Tomb Raider is awesome. PDZ, as you make fun of it, is pretty good. COD2 wouldn't run on my old PC and works great on my 360. But wait, doesn't Sony keep saying that the PS3 is just a PC?

I will accept that the PS3 will have some great games. You need to learn to accept that the 360 has some good games, and there are some killer games on the horizon. Games are SUPPOSED to be fun. They aren't supposed to work you up into some Fanboy, Mega-Corporation Frenzy. That goes for a lot of people on ALL sides of the fence.

I have no desire to get angry and worked up over video games. That happens enough when I get my butt kicked on HALO 2. And when I get home, I will be playing some GRAW. I will be just as excited to play some PS3 games when they announce some to be excited about.

JIN KAZAMA: "hi sony, i just bought a PS3, but it just seems like a PS2. the games look the same, the online service is laggy and expensive, there are no good blu-ray movies, the games cost $75 and the console really is over priced"

Sony Customer Service: "Well, dummy, what did you expect, its not like there weren't 20 million articles all over the net saying that"

JIN KAZAMA: "But I love you! Sony, noooooooooooo"

Sony Customer Service: "If you pay us another $200 we may make a good console for you and put all the features we promised in."

JIN KAZAMA: "Okay! God I love you Sony!" uhhhh *orgasms*

Sony Customer Service: "I was only kidding dumb@ss! hahaha! Now go play God Of War, its the best we have for PS3."

JIN KAZAMA: *incoherent sobbing about how PS3 is the greatest thing ever* "Mommmy!!!!! they stole my moneeeeey!"

ps3 is for grown up folks ..stop b@tching around when ur not gonna buy the console.lol and nobody cares if u`ve got or like a 360 my friend.You guys jump in here post bullsh*t comments about ps3 this ..that..lol we`v never ever given a F@ck about ur @ss from day one .who is the B@tch now all over sony news looking for that little hope?Bored as hell ,come here saying sh*t when u should be on live right now

First, the BSIdiot, you are defending your console and saying, that you got 2 free repairs, you are not looking at the big picture dumbass. Your 360 borke on you twice within a year, your so dumb. You have a refurbished 360, and who knows whats going to break next. And you are happy that you didnt have to argue to get it fixed, god you are too simple minded for me to even educate you.
Now, for the other village idiot. You just made up this little scenerio about my calling the PS3 helpdesk. Well, BlandOfSpam, your case was actually TRUE, you cried to them LIKE a little baby, that your crapbox didnt work and ate up your DVD's. They treated you like a punk and now you ahve to pay 128 dollars to get it fixed. haha, oh wait, they are going to fix it for free, riight. And you are still dumb enough, stupid enough, and idiotic enough to defend your BROKEN 360. What a loser. You have went to a level of foolishness that no one can beat. Defending a company that sold you a broken 360, and then making you pay 128 dollars, plus shipping. You are pathetic. It just tells you how die hars the 360 fanboys are, and how stupid

Let's read what some developers have to say about Blu ray in PS3's

Quote:
"The Darkness" developer:
Quote:
Xbox360 a splendid console is, but a thing must I lost, which is the problem of rise medium, DVD therefore and also already becomes the gebagataliseerd, it is simply a problem nothing more and nothing less.

Team Ninja:
Quote:
We have 2 choose observations concerning Microsoft decide for DVD.
The limited developers, 9 GB are simply too a little. The more so if you as developer HD cut want sceens to a game add, and these HD cut sceens are certainly important, they form and important component of the tale in the game. It is ironical that Microsoft really quote always that their console HD console are but then they would have had choose drager simply also for HD.
Point two. It us will not surprise if over a year or 2 xbox360/1 on the market comes with built in HD dvd or Blu Ray driver.

"Enchant arm" developer:
These developer are with the game "Enchant busy arm" RPG, and sit already with its hands in proverbial her.
Quote:
We hoped that we would get the game on 2 DVD's, but themselves seems that now already impossible, there probably 3 will will become. Every old school gamer can you tell that switching the disc is during the game simply not nice and it disturbs in the complete experienceexperience experience.

Vivendi Universal, Michael Heilmann, chief technology officer of Vivendi Universal.:
Quote:
The technical needs of the gamedevelopers shouts simply for more sophisticated rise media.
Blu ray give that kwantiteit, performances and speed which we have necessary us.

Electronic doctor:
Quote:
The coming games are HD and it is vital that Sony for this Blu have chosen ray.
Blu Ray give the capacity, functionality and interactivity which we have necessary for us the projects which we have in development.

Ninja theory:
Quote:
Seriously the games will beelden a lot of dates for all levels character tussenfilmpjes and HD, and AAA necessary have, certainly for the games which we have in planning. Sony showed during the presentation that the rise medium Blu Ray 100 time was this way it the complete Main ram. To show that DVD have not enough rise a game such as we do not want make accommodate to be able, and we must admit; that is also this way. Yes, we will have certainly know Blu ray necessary.

Mark clean:
Quote:
Unreal tournament 6 GB "had been wrapped up".
Next generation games ordinary 20 GB will be, and more.
How we must get this on 9GB DVD, I it simply know certainly several DVD's will will become.
On PS3 do not have occupy our with that.

Toriyama of Square-Enix;
Quote:
We have had discussions internally and Blu Ray for PS3 chosen to bring out FF XIII there on, DVD are ordinary not well enough the games we want which make with the type visual expression what we want XIII use in FF.
Also the shader possibilities of PS3 that better are if that of Xbox360 an important role gespeelt have.

F1 developers.
Quote:
PS2 sits simply to be on the screen limit with 22 cars. But PS3 really an enormous step is forward, which thing is an animal!!
We pump enormously much graphische details in the game, but also in everything, not only the cars also the surroundings. To give yourself just as an idea, 1 car on PS3 uses as much memory as all 22 cars on our last F1 game on PS2 together. That is simply it 22 voudige.
You even damages to the sidepods are able see you are possible and can look at you in the cars, all details are simply present. Also the gameplay a large change will undergo. It demands an enormous mount to dates, no we are with BLu ray very glad.

Ubisoft
Quote:
Ours focus lies 100% on Blu Ray, I can draw no agreement with Hd-dvd but this rise media will be used provisionally also not yet for games, Blu ray however already right from the beginning. Blu Ray are real awesome.
The capacity is incredible, the dates transfer Rate much are larger if we have so far got used, certainly larger as at DVD. And that is more important if it seems.
Dates streaming the narrowest manner is next-gen lift games to new level. THE HDD to find we not this way important, but we knew also not yet certain or this standard in PS3 would sit that is now, however, this way. We use rather the streaming technique, but HDD would give the possibility you to store your complete played game and him later still to look back, as a type of selfmade "move".
We still play with that idea.

You can conclude according to me, however, that what is all now said Microsoft and in the media that Blu ray belangijk are not simply not where is.
Because those make the those games its clearly another opinion mattered.

............................. .....

more info I have about Blu Ray

noticed that this thread is made as an official thread for PS3 and Blu-Ray and that the discussion in this thread have to continue in this thread here. Yet, I noticed that the discussion in this thread is bit different from the other thread. What exactly is the topic of this thread relatively to the one in the other thread?

Anyway, I am more interested in how well Blu-Ray would work for PS3 relatively to the way DVD9 work for Xbox 360. The discussion in the other thread, initially about DVD9 having too limited spaces, brought a bit of attention to stuff like procedural synthesis which is used as a big data compression to help with DVD9's limited spaces.

From what I have read from Hypx's post, having plenty of storage spaces from Blu-Ray can save game publishers a lot of money that can't be realized if DVD(s) (in general?) are used. The way it work, every single audio track for every single language can be put in, effectively create one version of the game for every single region and that it is less of a hassle to deal with one version rather than multiple versions. From what I have read about .hack//G.U., the English version of it won't have Japanese voice-over something about not having enough spaces though from what I have further read, it actually got enough spaces for Japanese voice-over or can use better compression method to get enough spaces. Potentially, Blu-Ray will allow in multiple languages for the Playstation 3 games which is more appealing than just one language which can have a huge negative impact (Shenmue 2 for Xbox for example was known to have terrible English voice acting and that the Japanese voice-over, which wasn't supported, was desperately needed in order to handle the English voice acting).

Blu-Ray, with larger storage space capacity, can allow in more high quality FMVs than DVD9. I am aware that the video codec used for Xbox 360 allowed in lots of FMVs in high resolutions (plenty of endings for Dead or Alive 4 for example), but sometimes it may not be enough that more spaces is needed in order to handle that which is where Blu-Ray can come in. For some of people who believe that FMVs aren't important, they should take note that it was one of the main reasons why Playstation beat Nintendo 64 and that Final Fantasy VII got higher score from using FMVs to show Mako Cannon, Weapons and the ending in action.

While procedural synthesis was brought up as a big data compression method used to save the DVD9, Hypx pointed out that it can potentially do the opposite. Basically, it can be used to create huge detailed worlds which would take up more spaces than the way procedural synthesis would be used for current-generation-based games (games that are not necessary considered to be next-generational as they don't represent the leap from previous generation to the next). At this time, I don't see the limit to how detailed a world can be created on a Xbox 360 game using procedural synthesis so I'm not sure on how well more spaces from Blu-Ray would be needed, using procedural synthesis, to create detailed world than Xbox 360 may normally allow.

Hypx also brought up Megatexturing, in development by Carmack, as a way to create a world without a repetition of textures (no tiling method is needed) and without using much memory spaces. The way it work, one large texture is used to cover an entire world, allowing it to be truly detailed, and is directly streamed from the disk or HDD so the whole world may not be necessary loaded in in order to view a small part of it, taking up much less memory spaces. According to Carmack, the Megatexture is extremely large in size even when compressed, so Blu-Ray would be more needed in order to handle that much spaces than DVD9.

I have yet to see Hypx to Vampirtc's counterpoints which I would like to see. Reason for this is in one of his counterpoint, he asked where would the Megatexture would be stored which I didn't understand. The way Megatexturing work and applied to the use of Blu-Ray, only a small amount of spaced would be loaded into system memory (RAM or HDD) directly streamed from the source (Blu-Ray) so they wouldn't necessary to be squeezed into 512MB of memory in overall.

............................. .........

For faster loading times, Blu-Ray got better seeking capability, by having better seeking time and capability to read multiple sectors at once,allowing it to find the data quickly requested by a game so it can start loading that data quickly so it can potentially greatly reduce the load times. By having more spaces, the files needed to be loaded need not be greatly compressed to the point that it would take lots of processing power and time in order to decompressed for use.

For making the game longer, it's up to developers to set how long a game is and how much resources they need to make it that long. For example, a role-playing game that rely heavily on FMVs would need as much spaces as needed in order to have those FMVs in. It also would need as much resources, requiring as much spaces as needed, in order to have the storyline as long and completed as needed, stuff like many cities/towns, dungeons, character models, voice acting and stuff like that.

............................. ..........

Just some info to be debated

Its been 2 minutes, you should be back by now. haha

Enchant Arms IS ON ONE DISC!

"The most contraversial part of the 360 has been disc space. I mean obvously DVD's dont hold enough space, I mean look at GTA it took up a whopping 3 gigs.
/Sarcasm

In my daily internet searches I came across this Japanese website X's Network. MS has been taking hits from gamers and devs for not having enough Disc space. Devs on [eM] -eNCHANT arM a former launch title in japan, have been saying the game is easily filling up 2 DVDs!!! Well looks like MS was wrong about DVDs being enough right?
Wrong.

Take a look at the display box for [eM] -eNCHANT arM:"

http://xbox360.qj.net/-eM-e...

Looks like the game is now only one disc. Have the Devs started using WMV-HD to compress the CG videos? or have they realized that DVDs can have 2 layers?

"Disc space looks like a non issue for this new gen so far, but Sony and there push to get Blu-ray into your house over HD-DVD would have you believe other wise."

PWNED.

You are now Officially: "THE FALSE"

*gets out "Human to SonyTroll Dictionary"*

"Here is a fact, you're an idiot"

Translation: "I have no intelligent response to your factual post, so I'll just make a lame comeback and attack you, instead of your argument."

you fail.

Any game that goes over 20GB this gen, really, really needs to:

A. Look into compression.

B. Be the best damn game the world has ever seen and will see for the next two decades.

360 has an upgradable Harddrive and the way things are looking any disc might be a waste.

360 has upgradable this upgradable that.All xbox 360 seems to be is an upgrade from xbox 1.0 there for it is an xbox 1.5

Cyclonus, and THELANDOFSAND are both 8-10 year olds. Anyway its quite obvious the PS3 will make the 360 look like the next dreamcast, it already looks that way in stores, but most importantly is the fact the 360 STILL hasn't passed the 4 million mark. That's sad. Also people here are overeacting because, why waste you're breath, when everyone knows the xbox 360 is a flop, no seriously it is, just go to any store that sells one and you'll see. I forgot to mention that the PS3 will be the best selling game system of this generation. Five years from now when the new generation is starting you can quote what I just said, that will be all for now.

"so you know its you I was replying to dipSh!t"

He knows you were replying to him because your comment was indented under his. That is because you pressed "reply" to his post.
What are you twelve?

I doubt you're 24, you spend far too much time in this website to have a kid, and I don't lie about my finances. Finally I never said the N word, and if you think I did show me that post. 10 year olds they don't know when to quit.

$600.00 with out game/tax/good exclusive's/extra pad. PS3 has (B)-Drive with (B)-disc that most can't use but will cost them. This is what the average shopper will know; come Christmas time. Lets not forget about the topic, why do they keep delaying this technoligy, are they so scared of going the way of the DOE-DOE that their going to launch all Sony's (B)-players at the same time as PS3 so people will say (well we can upgrade to (B)lu-Ray with the PS3 because we need to buy other Xmas gifts)IF it wasn't for brand loyalty PS3 would go the way of the Neo-Geo instantly!, instead of being dragged along bleeding to death by PS3's hardcore fans. "gamtime" all console's are upgraded it's how theire more advanced the the previous one, with the exeption of PS3's downgraded games and controller and non-upgradable tard-version of the PS3.

xbox 360 =updated graphics THATS IT!! That = not next gen.

What the fu*k are you talking about?.

So is upgraded better than downgraded?...lol

If ps3 is so downgraded why is everyone waiting for it and leaving pyramids of crapbox 1.5's in every store.

i like when you said "according to my sources"LOL what sources are you talking about other than what sony says?

PS3 will sell out at launch, agreed.

Brand loyalty and it's the best on the market because Sony said so. And i don't know why there's stacks of crap box1.5's, are they real.lol

Are you a racist?.

yes they are real.You dont understand there are pyramids of them in EVERY store.Obviously no one wants one.

I live in New York and there are 360's everywhere, gametime has a point.

I just wanted to post this around how moronic this kid is so we can get him booted from this website

4 - Give me a break look at the Xbox 360 its white and nobody

Horse Piss - 24 Minutes ago

Is complaining about that being racist people in America can just tare out there balls and d1ck off cause they are so retarded in so many way's they say Sony is being racist look what there doing they'er picking on the Japanese thier the one that is truly being racist jackass! morons!.
Reply | Agree(0) | Disagree(0) | Spam/Offensive

Cutting edge" is losely thrown around when it comes to Sony, i guess it's "so" cutting edge; it's before it's time and can't be yelded, or built properly and has to be downgraded in every erea of the console. I trust MS so im not one of those people that must have the so called "BEST" Sony comes across as If-comercial sale's men.

if it was the green boxes yeah i would belive you because its the core package and no one realy buys the core pack so yeah i belive you if its the green boxes.

Just admit it sony has the better console.If you except it know the less harder it will be on you when sony destroys MS in perfomance and sales.

The xbox 360 is overhyped as well. I had one and it wan't as good as microsoft would wan't you to believe. Not even close.

They stepped up the production of the 360's and it's Summer, at $400 a pop and the KIll line-up a ways away only an dirt cheap console like the PS2 will sale in the slow season. Just wait i'm alost sure the 360 will sale like it did at it's launch. 360 and Wii will be the console this Xman because the PS3 will be sold out.

Gears of war and halo are prime example's of pure hpye.

yea it sure will, not. it will be sold over all over, the 360 will sell way more over the xmas break. you are dumb, people arent gunna pay that much for their kids for a game system, unless they are pretty wealthy. the price will turn them off, then there is the wii and 360 waiting for them. plus gears of war, and halo 3 beat all your exclusives. your just jealous that they arent on the ps3. lol, i like the pic, that is on the 360 too. haha

I don't like PS so it will never be better to me, in the end; this is what we above average gamer's fight over. Im stuck in the past in knowing PS is always cheap and has always had sub-par qaulity. If i had the only 360 in the USA and Dev's were still pumping out hits i could care lees about the PS3, the console war has me hooked because these are exciting times in the home entertainment world, i just got caught up in this bull.

let me prove to you about the PS3's value so we can end this debate and move-on.

Playstation 3 and Xbox360 – Comparing and Contrasting:
Before I compare and contrast with the Xbox360 hardware, here are some quick facts about the Xbox360 hardware:
Xbox360 Quick Hardware Summary:
The Xbox360 has a tri-symmetrical core CPU. Each one of the cores is based on the POWER architecture like the PPE inside the Cell, and is clocked at 3.2GHz. Each core has 32kb L1 instruction and 32kb LI data cache, and has a 1MB shared L2 cache. Each chip also sports an enhanced version of the VMX-128 instruction set and execution units. This enhanced version expands the register file from 32 128-bit registers, to a pair of 128 128-bit registers – with one execution unit per core. Each of these cores can also dual-issue instruction and handles two hardware threads, bringing the Xbox360 thread total to 6 hardware threads. The CPU and GPU share 512MB of GDDR3 RAM. Xbox360’s GPU, codenamed “Xenos” is designed by ATI and sports 48 shader pipelines using a unified shader architecture. The Xbox360 GPU also has 10MB of eDRAM for the frame buffer and over 200GB/s of bandwidth between this eDRAM and a simple logic uni, for a limited set of 3D processing effects such as anti-aliasing and z-buffering.

The system sports a DVD9 optical media drive from which games are loaded, a controller with rumble features, and 100mbps Ethernet.

Head To Head:
General Architecture Differences:
One thing I think is important when looking at CPU architecture is visuals. In the world of computing, physical distance between parts of a computer system generally corresponds with the speed (latency-wise) of their communication,

Bandwidth Assessment:
I recall an article IGN released short after or during E3 2005 comparing Playstation 3 and Xbox360. Microsoft analyzed their total system bandwidth in the Xbox360 and came up with some outrageous numbers compared to the Playstation 3. One of the big reasons for this total number being higher is the 256GB/s bandwidth between the daughter die and parent die in the Xenos(graphics chip). I will explain the use of the eDRAM memory later, but it is important to know that the logic performed between those two components with 256GB/s bandwidth hardly constitutes a system component where considering game processing takes place. Additionally, Microsoft added up bandwidths that weren’t relevant to major component destinations such as “to CPU” or “to GPU.” Context like that matters a lot, because bandwidth between any two elements is only as fast as the slowest memory bus in-between. The only bandwidth figures that make sense to add together are those on separate buses to the end destination.

The biggest ugly (and this really is a big one) in the Xbox360 diagram should be the location of the CPU relative to the main system memory. It has to be accessed through the GPU’s memory controller. The Xbox360 GPU’s memory has 22.4GB/s bandwidth to the system’s unified memory, and this bandwidth is split between the GPU’s needs and the CPU’s. A simple investigation would show that if the Xenon(Xbox360 CPU) was using its full 21.6GB/s bandwidth to system memory, there would be 800MB/s left for the GPU. If the GPU was using it’s full bandwidth to this memory, none would be left for anything else. Additionally, the southbridge(I/O devices) is connected through the GPU also, and all of these devices are actually destined to go to the CPU unless sound for the Xbox360 is done on the Xenos. The impact of this is considerably less since I/O devices probably won’t exceed more than a few hundred MB/s during a game, and isn’t shared by GPUs 22.4GB/s access to main memory. This bandwidth is still going through the same bus that the CPU uses to access RAM though.

Looking at the diagram of the Playstation 3, you can see that the RSX has a dedicated 22.4 GB/s to its video memory, and the Cell has a dedicated 25.6GB/s to its main memory. Additionally, if you wanted to find the bandwidth the RSX could use from the Cell’s main memory, it go through the 35GB/s link between the Cell and itself, and then go through the Cell processor’s FlexIO controller, on the EIB, to the Cells memory controller which is the gatekeeper to RAM. The slowest link in the line is the bandwidth the XDR memory controller provides which is 25.6GB/s. If the RSX uses this extra bandwidth it is being shared with the Cell. In general though, the major components in the Playstation 3 have their own memory to work with which provides maximum bandwidth.

In terms of peak performance, if both the GPU and CPU for both consoles were pushing the maximum bandwidths from their respective memory banks, the total for Xbox360 would be 22.4GB/s, and the total for the Playstation 3 would be 48GB/s. I believe this to be the most important bandwidth measure as both of these elements are the major programmable elements of a gaming machine. They will be processing game data or graphics data independently, and need fast access and high bandwidth to what they are working on.

While the Xbox360 shared bandwidth is a big downside on the grand scheme of things considering potential, Microsoft probably allowed this due to the nature of a game loops often not involving both the CPU and GPU needing high bandwidth simultaneously. Overall, during a game loop, Xbox360 will probably use its 22.4GB/s bandwidth almost constantly due to the CPU using it heavily for a part of the game loop, and the GPU using extreme bandwidth during another part of the game loop. While a Playstation 3 game, if it uses a typical game loop design, would show half of the frame time, the CPU is using high bandwidth to its memory, the other half being mostly unused; and the same thing for the GPU’s use of video RAM. That isn’t a disadvantage of the Playstation 3’s part, but it is a lack of using its full potential. A modified game loop that kept both rendering and CPU processing high would fare far better on the Playstation 3’s bandwidth and design than the Xbox360.

In the worst case scenario for the Playstation 3, if the GPU literally only used bandwidth for half of the game loop, overtime, you could consider it’s bandwidth to be half of its peak. Same thing applied to the Cell and XDR RAM would yield 12.8GB/s bandwidth if it only used XDR half of the time. Although Playstaiton 3 not to be outdone - if the situation of a game loop is like this, the RSX might as well take the XDR RAM bandwidth while the CPU is idling and increase its total bandwidth to 48GB/s.

Xbox360 “Xenon” compared to Playstation 3’s “Cell” – the CPUs:
Inter-core communication speed:
Another mystery with the Xbox360 (at least in my view) exists with the inter-core communication on the Xenos CPU between its cores. IBM clearly documents the Cell’s inter-core communication mechanism physically and how it is implemented in hardware and software. This bandwidth needs to be extremely high if separate cores need to communicate and share data effectively. The EIB on the Cell is documented at a peak performance of 204GB/s with an observed rate at 197GB/s. The major factor that affects this rate is the direction, source, and destination of data flow between the SPE and PPEs on the Cell. I tried to find out the equivalent piece of hardware inside the Xenon CPU and haven’t found a direct answer.

Looking at the second architectural diagram of the Xenon, it seems that the fastest method the cores can use to talk to each other is through the L2 cache. Granted, the Xenon only has 3 cores, game modules are usually highly dependent and will need to talk to each other frequently. I might be a jumping the gun a bit, but given the L2 cache and FSB are running at half of the core speed, as opposed to the Playstation 3’s EIB which runs at the same clock speed as the cores, I’m pretty positive using L2 cache to communicate is not going to be very fast. It seems that independent threads are really what Microsoft was aiming for with the Xbox360 CPU design, and games are not optimally implemented if they have massive streaming transfers to hand off to other cores. What would suggest that the Xbox360 cores can communicate quickly and with high bandwidth, would be evidence that the reading and writing to the L2 cache are in larger segments than the writes to the EIB, compensating for the lower clock speed. Additionally, just writing to memory isn’t enough as the receiver needs some sort of notification that it has new data unless it is a permanent buffer. If anyone wants to do research on the topic, please add it to the discussion and include links to your sources.

Enhanced VMX-128 instruction set:
This is one of the features Microsoft boasts to claim they have a better gaming machine than Sony. They focus on the fact that their enhancements support a single cycle dot product instruction, and the larger register file. The problem with this boast over the Playstation 3 is that it compares it to the PPE’s VMX-128 unit which comparably only has 1 set of 32 128-bit registers and presumably less instructions. If the code requires 128 128-bit registers, or more complex instructions, then the code is most definitely vector processing heavy and should be run on an SPE which sports the exact same register file size, and includes a superset of the VMX instructions in terms of functionality(it is not a superset in terms of being binary compatible).

While each core in the Xbox360 also has two VMX-128 register sets, this is done to support the dual threaded nature of the cores better. It doesn’t actually have two vector execution units. Each core only has one VMX-128 execution unit meaning that even though there are two sets of registers per core, two threads that are using vector code have to share this single execution unit.

Comparably, the Cell’s PPE has the limited 32 128-bit register file with a single VMX vector unit on the PPE. This is what Microsoft usually singles out when they compare Playstation 3 to the Xbox360’s CPU. They forget(purposefully) that the Cell has 7 SPEs running at 3.2 GHZ, which is far greater SIMD performance than their 3 enhanced VMX-128 execution units. For vector based computations, the Playstation 3 undeniably outdoes the Xbox360 by an order of magnitude.

The dot product instruction claim is matched at least on the SPEs on the Playstation 3 though a simple multiply-add instruction. For those of you that aren’t mathematically inclined, a dot product is basically a measure of how parallel or perpendicular two lines are. The calculation of a dot product is basically multiplying each corresponding dimension value together, and then taking those products and adding them all together. Take two vectors <2, 3, 4> and <6, 7, 8>. The dot product would be: 2*6 + 3*7 + 4*8 = 65. If you read the earlier section in this post covering the SPES and SIMD architectures, you should remember that at the very least, an SPE can do all of the multiplying in one cycle, and all that needs to be done is a follow up add between the elements in the result vector. I do know that the SPEs have a few multiply-add instructions, but the bit of haziness is if the multiply can be an intra-vector(between two separate vectors) operation, while the add instruction is an inter-vector(between elements in the same vector) instruction from the result of the multiply. Sony claims that the dot product can be done in one cycle on an SPE, and it is very reasonable that this is the case as there are vector permute/shuffles/shift instructions in the SPE instruction set. There just isn’t a labeled dot product instruction in the SPE instruction set – but an intelligent programmer should find what he needs.

I found the multiply-add instruction in the Cell BE Handbook. It takes 4 vectors, one is definitely the result vector and two are operands, but the third parameter named ‘rc’, which I think represents a control register that dictates how to perform inter and intra vector operations. That means the multiply-add instruction has to operate on only two vectors, and the control vector is able to dictate an add between the result components of the multiply.

Symmetrical Cores?:
Symmetrical cores means identical cores. The appeal to this setup is entirely for developers. It represents no actual horsepower advantage over asymmetric cores since code running on any of the cores, will run exactly the same as it would run if it were on another core. Relocating code to different cores has absolutely no performance gain or loss unless it means something with respect to how the 3 cores talk to each other. It should be noted though, that thread relocation does matter between the cores, as a thread might not co-exist well with another thread that is trying to use the same hardware that isn’t duplicated on the core. In that case, the thread would be better located on a core that has that execution resource free or less used. The only case of this I can think of is the VMX-128 execution unit. I think most other hardware is duplicated on the cores in the 360 to allow for two threads to co-exist with almost no problem.

The Cell chip has asymmetrical cores, which means they are not all identical. That being said, the SPEs are all symmetrical with each other and the code that runs on an SPE could be relocated to any other SPE in the Cell. While the execution speed local to the SPEs are the same, there are performance issues related to the bandwidth the SPE is using and who it’s talking to on the EIB. Developers should look at where their SPE code is executing to ensure optimal bandwidth is being observed on the EIB, but once they find an optimal location to execute the code on, they can just put it there without rewriting anything. If a task was running on the PPE or PPE’s VMX unit, then it would have to be recompiled with C, and probably rewritten if hardware specific instructions are in the code(C or ASM) before it moves to an SPE, and the same applies in reverse. Good design and architecture should immediately let developers know what should run on the PPE and what should run on the SPEs, eliminating the chance of rewriting code if they see something better fit to run on an SPE later in development.

Is general purpose needed?:
Another one of Microsoft’s claims for the Xbox360’s superiority in gaming is the general purpose processing advantage since they have 3 general purpose cores instead of 1.

To say “most of the code is general purpose” probably refers to code size, not execution time. First, it should be clarified that “general purpose code” is only a label for the garden variety of instructions that may be given to hardware. On the hardware end, this code fits into various classifications such as arithmetic, load/store, SIMD, floating point, and possibly more. General purpose applications are programs made up of general purpose code on the scale that one function might be arithmetically heavy, and another might be memory bound. Good examples of this are MS Word, a web browser, or an entire operating system. With MS Word there is a lot of string processing which involves some arithmetic, comparison, a lot of branching, and memory operations. When you click import or export and save to various file formats, it is an I/O heavy operation. Applications like these tend to not execute the same code over an over, and have many different functions that can occur on relatively a small set of data depending on what the user does. These functions can vary from being very I/O device bound (saving to disk), to string processing intensive (spelling/grammar check), to floating point intensive(embedded Flash media game or resizing an image). Ultimately, there is a large amount of code written to handle the small set of data and most of it never gets executed.

Games are not general purpose programs. Any basic game programming book will introduce you to the concept of a game loop. This loop contains all of the functionality a game performs each frame. This loop handles all of the events that can occur in the game. An important principle in a game loop is to avoid branches when unnecessary as it slows down execution and makes the code on screen extremely and unnecessarily long. A good example of this is the Cohen-Sutherland line clipping algorithm. Instead of writing lengthy and complicated branches to check the 9 regions a point lies in, the code performs 4 simpler checks, and computes a region code which can be easily be used.

This automatic and repetitive processing has to occur for many game objects which represents a massive amount of data, with a relatively small code size. This is opposite of the general purpose paradigm, which typically has a small set of data (word document or html) and performs many various functions on it representing a large code size. Games processing has a large data size, but much smaller code size. Game objects also tend to be very parallel in nature as game objects are typically independent until they interact (collision) – which means they can be processed well on SIMD architectures if they are well thought out..

The whole integer advantage claim for the Xbox360 CPU is pretty stupid considering the SIMD architectures can operate on 4 32-bit integers at the same time, and integer processing abilities of games are not the bottleneck of 3D games processing.

What this general purpose power does grant Xbox360 owners over Playstation 3 is the ability to run general purpose applications faster. If the Xbox360 had a web browser(official or not), the design for such an application would work better on a general purpose CPU(s). That being said, it’s too bad Xbox360 doesn’t come with one, and web browsers don’t put the highest demand on general purpose processors to begin with. Most general purpose applications remain idle until the user gives actually input. The application will then process the task and complete before sitting idle again.

AI routines that navigate through large game trees are probably another area where general purpose processing power might be better utilized since this code tends to be more branch laden and varying depending on the task the AI is actually trying to accomplish. The plus side for the Playstation 3 is generating of these game trees, which is also time consuming. Generating a game tree is a more computational oriented task, and is likely to be executed faster by SIMD architectures. I am largely speaking speculatively under my Computer Science knowledge in this area. Anyone who knows more or has done more research on AI algorithms is welcome to add to discussion in this area.

The only case I can really see the general purpose computing power of the Xbox360 cores manifesting itself as a true advantage over the Playstation 3, is if Windows or similar OS was put on an Xbox360, having multiple applications running simultaneously along with some background services. Again, it is funny that Playstation 3 is more likely to have a general purpose operating system running on it than Xbox360 even though it would perform worse doing such a task.

XDR vs GDDR3 – System Memory Latency:
XDR stands for eXtreme Data Rate while GDDR3 stands for Graphics Double Data Rate version 3. XDR RAM is a new next generation RAM technology from those old folks at Rambus, who brought out that extremely high bandwidth RDRAM back during the onset of Pentium 4 processors. DDR was released soon after and offered comparable ...

You dont control what people buy their kid just because you cant afford ps3.Oh yes im so jealous of gears of war(shoot aliens duk shoot aleins duk)so exciting(sarcasim)GOW offers nothing next gen but graphics PERIOD.

PS3 will be done before this Christmas due to pre-ordering, if the love for Sony is high as you say.

Killzone 2 will look better than halo and gears of war.You xbots are forgetting UT2K7 for ps3 is going to look as good or better than GOW they are both made by epic.too bad your piece of crap console has maxed out already.plastic figures is what you get in GOW BTW

haha, that is the funniest thing i have heard today, killzone 2. wow, that game looks like it will blow, and no it wont even come close to halo 3, or gow, or prey. ut2k7 looks pretty much like all the previous uts. all the same. i thought you always thought fps suked. but now you are standing up for them, haha, priceless. halo 3 will own all your games.

Is that all MS has put out as the savour of your pitiful console.It wont help them much,only the halo losers will buy halo and GOW haha what a boring game only thing it offers is graphics,pathetic

Lost planet is a sleeper with it's Next-gen action and graphics. Just pray if PS3 isn't delayed again that it works right. PEACE!!!

only sony losers will buy the ps3. just keep waiting and waiting. just stare at your piece ps2. that is all you have. you dont have one good game that comes close to our exclusives. get that throught your head. you should go enjoy that laggy piece of crap that killzone is.
killzone 2, i dont ne one has heard about that game for a year. no one cares about that game. halo 3 will be on top of the online world for years. just like halo 2

lost planet is a sleeper and will stay asleep

lol, looks like the ps3 and blue ray is asleep, and isnt waking up for a while.

ahh I think samsung has released a blu ray player already so that is how much of a stupid ass you are.

So what blu players are out on the market already who cares if sony delayed their specific model.

ahh, i think the 360 is released, but the ps3 is still delayed. lol gotcha again.

OMG you got me so good(sarcasim)GO MASTERBATE TO HALO AND GOW LOSER

omg, i am surprised you even know what masterbate is, i thought it would be a little compelex for your little brain that has been brainwashed by sony. cant wait till you blow over 800 dollars on your ps3, then watch it overheat.

YOU must have brainwashed,you are defending a piece of crap console that no one wants and all it has is updated graphics and NO FEARURES.

yup it is a piece for sure(sarcasm) you are defending a console that sony brainwashed you guys to like. you dont remember how many times they have lied. plus the ps3 is just made up of all the 360 and wii capabilities. all sony does is copy these two consoles. just keep on waiting for your piece of crap console. ill be playing my 360

ps3 is going to be the best console to come out in the history of video games DONT HATE!! you are the stupid@ss in the ps3 comment section.I NEVER! GO INTO THE XBOT SECTION becasue xbox 1.5 is a complete waste of money.So keep playing your wack@ss games and dont cry when ps3 sells 3x more than xbox1.5 again

wont need to cry, 360 is on top, an will stay on top till 2009, then their next console will soon be coming out. lol, this is called industry news, not ps3 news. and is ps3 and 360 news. a loser

This has nothing to do with xbox 1.5 nor MS thus this is ps3 news.I cant wait to see what you will say when sony passes MS in sales in 2007 LOL!! please no lame excuses but dont say i did'nt tell you so.

lol, good luck. thus this is not ps3 news. cant you read, this is called industry news. it says nothing about ps3 news.

this has nothing to do with anybody but sony and ps3.for someone who cant afford or not getting a ps3 You seem to be very interested in ps3 news.

Take a look at this

http://angrysonyfanboy.ytmn...

This is freaking hilarious!

naw, i just like to see that blue ray will lose to hddvd. and ps3 will lose to the 360. period. ya i am reading this from the xbox 360 section.

All you are doing is spamming, don't let the Sonyfanboys get to you!

Ok i cannot argue with 10 years old.you are obviously in a dream world.No matter how much you want MS to win they wont plain and simple.sony fanbase is too large for MS to handle,THEY CANNOT BEAT SONY.MS should go back to making software and leave the hardware to the profesionals.halo loser i bet you would be supporting blu ray if MS had it instead of the inferior hd dvd but know you are hationg on sony agian because they have the better console and next gen storage disk.

first i was rushing and second this is a forum not english class little man

Go read the review of Prey at gamespot.com. Once again, it got decent reviews, nothing spectacular. Pathetic

I am censored

ITS JUST A SHAME GTA4 HAS TO BE HELD BACK ON PS3 BECASUE OF THE WEAK POWERED XBOX 1.5

HAHA, you guys were talking about how sweet this game is gonna be, it got a 7.5/10. You guys were talking about how sweet OverG Fighters was gonna be, it got a 5.9/10. And you have the nerve to talk about the PS3, and it being delayed. I am glad it was delayed, so i didnt have to buy it a year ago, like your 360, and with sucky games comming out for it.

When the same review or worse review comes out for the 360, dont say Sh!T. You'll see, its going to be the same or worse!!!

im out of here, take over from here.

No one care about Over G fihgters, this "NEXT-GEN" game, hahaa, all you losers were happy as hell, saying oh sweeet, but you got disapointed again, like little B!tches. Just like Prey, and countless other games.

I got your back man, these MutherFukers dont know sh!t about anything.