Sony Motion Control is Easier For Developers

thor6079d ago

It can tell the difference between the two different people, and if it's a single-player game, it will presumably just ignore the second (but obviously it can't read your movements if someone's in the way, but then you can't see the TV screen so you'd be annoyed anyway).

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tripewire6079d ago

LOL

You just won the interwebs

IdleLeeSiuLung6079d ago

Natal supposedly can track up to 4 people and does not get interfernce from people around you. It also can guestimate where your body parts are if it is accidentally covered up, like by another person walking by.

I'd say, that sounds pretty cool if it works!

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Tony P6079d ago

I don't get it. Natal is accused of being an Eye Toy rip, but if that's true, wouldn't the tech be much easier to program for since its supposedly been out for years? Not harder?

And if Natal really is harder to program, won't we see better Natal games later just like we've seen PS3 games improve as devs become more familiar with the workings?

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Sarcasm6079d ago

So Natal really cant be used in the dark?

People play games at night too yah know. Not everyone has a brightly lit room.

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C_SoL6079d ago

....rumble pack sold separately.

Thugbot1876079d ago (Edited 6079d ago )

"Sony's ball-and-wand device MIGHT actually be easier on developers."
This is just pure speculation, they aren't sure what the Natal SDK is like from Microsoft.When they say "Natal has to figure out that it needs to ignore your friend, who won't stop moving around on the sofa next to you."; microsoft said the software they have around Natal already does that, that's part of the sale in the technology.

"whatever algorithms are intelligently sorting behind the scenes recognize your intentions, filtering out flailing limbs or ignoring unnecessary maneuvers." http://www.futurelab.net/bl...

"Wiimote, which gives developers data about user "gestures", the Sony device is much more precise, and inputting motion control should be a snap for programmers." We know the Sony motion control is more precise but I'm not sure how they get it will be easier to develop for than the Wiimote. At the end of the day all you get back from a device is Data, generally frameworks are wrapped around the data that comes back so this doesn't have to be done each time. Even if the manufacture doesn't do it for you its at most a 1 month task.

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Ju6079d ago

Still, I can imagine, the wand is just an extended "joystick" API, with some more motion data attached to it (like velocity and direction plus position in a virtual 3D world, mapped into the game world).

But how do you do that with a full body ? How do you define you want to track a hand only ? Or some other part. MS is known for the SW tech, and possibly they have a very genius solution to this which is easy to use. But it sound more complex to me, even if the OS (or driver) filters out all your "environmental noise" around you.

himdeel6078d ago (Edited 6078d ago )

..tangible physically accessible peripherals will always trump spatial peripherals and you can quote me on this in 1000 years...if you're still around :) I don't care what anyone tells you.

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The Lazy One6078d ago

Natal's hardware ties a players body to an in game skeleton. It tracks each piece of the body and calculates positions of various key points which can then be used for in game data.

If you want to track player1's hand for ex, I'd assume it would be as easy as doing:

player1.getLeftHand.getPos();

As Natal's onboard hardware and software are already doing the calculations for skinning the players' bodies to the skeletons it makes, the programming is actually really simple. The only thing more complex would be that there's 14 points being tracked instead of 2 (Head, body, shoulders, elbows, hands, hips, knees, and feet).

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GameGambits6078d ago

I'm a Sony supporter, but come the hell on. This is simple flamebait BS. Getting a lot of that today on N4G it seems.

Here's the only question you need to ask yourself to realize how stupid the person who wrote this up is:

Who are the developers that are currently working with both technologies to tell you which is easier to develop for? Oh lemme guess....NO ONE!

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ChozenWoan6078d ago

I've done some programing in Basic and it makes sense to me. With a proper plugin/SDK the PSMotion system can take the raw data from the PSWand and PSEye and convert it automatically into usable data for the programmers. They already have the motion tracking plugin from the Eyetoy/PSEye, which they can use to just add the PSWand data to. It really is not that hard of a leap in logic to make.

Natal on the other hand has a lot more "points of interest" to track. Devs have to first and foremost decide which parts they want to use. Do they use just the hands, just the forearm, just the upper body, just the head, just the upper torso, just the left foot or the right foot. All these things can be tracked, so it means there is more data to filter. Which is likely why we see so much lag in the demos, as the system has to filter all this data before the devs can even begin to program with it.

Of coarse, I'm just going off of my limited experience with programing so I may be WaaAaay off with my Natal analysis. As for my assessment of the PSWand, I think I'm pretty close to right on the money.

Kakkoii6078d ago

@Sarcasm:

Huh? Natal can track in the dark just fine. It uses infrared light to track things. And shoots out it's own infrared to make sure.

himdeel6078d ago (Edited 6078d ago )

...Player throws HIMSELF across the room instead of controller when he lost a race while playing Burnout Paradise on the 360 using the Natal device. As paramedics use the jaws of life to extricate him from the wall the unnamed individual was quoted in saying, "Someone walked in front of the Natal and made me lose the race...stupid bastard." news at 11.

DaTruth6078d ago

My only issue with Natal is the most important... Who is going to make the games when MS has no first party, and third party won't touch anything that can't easily be made multiplatform; Especially when it is based on an expensive peripheral, that may or may not, catch on(we already know how people feel about expensive stuff)!

I know Sony will have the 30 first parties to make their games! Third parties could even make a downgrade for the Wii and rake in the cash!

Bzone246078d ago

Yeah, all them first party developers made so many games for the eye toy, so they will probaly do the same for the wand.

GiantEnemyCrab6078d ago

lol, the subtle ownage at the Natal haters are priceless here.

So much FUD glad to see some people actually know what they are talking about.

On this article: I expected to see some dev quotes or sources not just speculation being passed off as fact.

I am going to own both wand and Natal so I hope they both get some good support. That is, if they aren't ridiculously priced.

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THC CELL6079d ago

i cant see people sticking to the microsoft project to be honest

4 player games will need a hell of a room
and u will need a hell of a tv

i have a wild feeling that microsoft will scrap this project

clinker6079d ago

That's a good point actually. What are we supposed to do here in Europe with our ghetto 32-inch TVs and closet-sized living rooms?

Americans could play project Natal in the back of their Hummers, but not the Japanese or Europeans.

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thor6079d ago

Wow you just made a _really_ good point there... most people don't have a huge lounge and even for the camera to be able to see your whole body you'll have to stand quite a way back... eyetoy worked OK because it didn't require you to use your whole body, but Natal's only games so far have used full body control. Add a few players into the mix and it's going to get crowded...

THC CELL6079d ago

here is another point
watch the clip again the first showing of natal

u see the size of the room
and yet she still almost kicked the tv off the wall

i will make a better point cause really i am not a mad fanboy
i would love to nav around my dashboard with natal
that was the best feature
would be cool for the web also

playing games no thank u
i would need a controller

sony has the 1 up if u look at it on wii and Ms

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hay6079d ago

I'll agree with you guys here. Most people in Europe don't have environment appropriate for Natal. As some simple functions like navigating dashboard look really nice, other uses of it don't seem that bright.
Cameras have certain resolution and viewing angle so in order to play in more than one person certain distance from the cam and play space is needed. But then there's the question if the cam will operate for few people being farther from the screen.
Also I can hardly think of gaming without controlers. Nice example wood be a driving game. In Natal you could use some round object or just hands in mid-air and here's the problem. Keeping hands in the air isn't the most convenient way of playing. Using controler it's easier to achieve some level of comfort, with driving wheels your hands are resting on it.

And then, there's the precision. Harry Potter's Dildo have additional hardware supporting movement in addition to the camera itself, it's in the lead as it comes to precision.

Demo was a lot of marketing stuff. I highly doubt it'll be as cool as it should.

And no, it's not fanboy rant as I would love to see Natal with all the functions. It would be a major step forward for gaming and tons of fun in the first place.

Kakkoii6078d ago

How about you try thinking about how people will play the games with the Sony Motion Controller. Natal is no different, you just don't need a stupid ball on a stick to do things. And have a higher level of interactivity with the games, such as using your fingers.

Nikuma6078d ago

Not trying to bash Natal or be a rabid fanboy... but I can't see natal being a commercial success. Who knows though.

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DaTruth6078d ago

You guys think Europe is bad! Imagine Japan; Many people sleep in shelfs and bedroom are just beds in a closet!

Please don't bash me if this isn't true, but it is what I see on movies and on television, so I understand if it is factually incorrect. And no, I'm not thinking of China, even though it applies!

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tripewire6079d ago

I cant wait.

Imagine games with the production values of games like Heavy Rain and and The Last Guardian using Motion Controls.

"See this Nintendo? See what we're doing here?"

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thor6079d ago

Actually I think the on-board processor in the Natal system will handle the processing and you'll eventually just get given a set of numbers representing hand position, head position etc. so for developers it will be just as simple. The software in Natal that's been developed by Microsoft will handle all of the things like ignoring other players who come into the room.

Still, it cannot be applied to existing game genres like they want us to believe. It will be purely casual gimmick games.

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THC CELL6079d ago

Natal is just dumb

Dont ya think if it would of been a success
Sony would of done the same years ago with the eye toy (ps2)

i like to play games with a control in my hands not flapping about
im sick of ms making false clames

Eyetoy and motion is a step up
Natal is just a next gen ps2 toy really

KingKionic 6079d ago

obviously its not...

Microsoft wouldn't be preparing it for xbox 360 .

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thor6079d ago

Eyetoy and dildo isn't a step up any more than Natal is. Natal works better than an Eyetoy, but basically is that I agree.

The trouble with Natal is that whilst it allows you to control the game with any part of your body, this means that in any game, you're going to be fixed in place, or playing some casual-type game, or you're going to be on-rails in some way. Because there's no feasible way to map "moving forward" to body controls that's actually intuitive. I could walk towards the screen but I've got to stop at some point. I could move my leg forward but that's not very intuitive or controllable, and I'd be much better off using a controller.

Let's look at all the games that require "moving forward". Well there's FPS, TPS, adventure, RPG, racing, open-world, pretty much most genres. Only RTS could arguably be done well. Even then, how many commands does an RTS require? You might be able to move your hand to the units, but how do you select them? It would actually be a lot more difficult to use your fingers in a scissor-like motion (for example) than it is to press a button to select. Likewise, all the commands you can issue would have to be listed at the bottom of the screen so you could press them. Thinking about it more closely, we see that an RTS game can't really be done either as they are today. Compare the number of keys on a keyboard with the number of different gestures you can think of that Natal can distinguish between.

So basically, Natal will be reduced to either head-tracking (which is beyond lame) whilst you use a normal controller, casual games and reinvented genres which have a Natal focus (i.e. less focus on gameplay and more focus on getting the gameplay to work with Natal). None of these things I am interested in.

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jerethdagryphon6079d ago

ok so what happens with natal if your playing and reach for a drink...

how will it interpret deliberate gestures from inconsequential ones especially in games requiring lots of movement like sports

will you reach for a coke result in you tossing the golfclub at someone...

C_SoL6079d ago (Edited 6079d ago )

rumble pack sold separately. LMAO :D jk jk

BTW how the would you pause the game?

zoks3106079d ago

You would yell "game pause", and if you ask me there are too many speculating going on over the PS3 motion and Natal, wait until TGS when Sony reveal it officially to the public, and wait until MS reveal there version next year, by then we should have enough info to tell whats whats.

Natal does come off like EyeToy though.

lowcarb6078d ago

"I could walk towards the screen but I've got to stop at some point. I could move my leg forward but that's not very intuitive or controllable, and I'd be much better off using a controller.

Let's look at all the games that require "moving forward". Well there's FPS, TPS, adventure, RPG, racing, open-world, pretty much most genres"

I doubt you will have to walk in any game. If your body is the controller then it will be up to developers to decide what body language is needed to move forward or backwards. Not sure how there going to do it but I'm sure it's going to surprise everyone.

The Lazy One6078d ago

There's plenty that can be done with it. You could use it to potentially offer some sort of in game response to how you react to certain games. It could be used to implement features like head tracking. It would be great for menu navigation when used in tandem with head tracking.

And for what was said about rts. You're really just using different gestures with your hands when you play with a keyboard and mouse. You'd just have to do slightly different gestures this way too. Combined with voice and gesture commands, Natal could be the one answer to console RTS's not sucking anymore.

Kakkoii6078d ago

Yet another ignorant fanboy comment from THC Cell.

Sony did try this, but their hardware was to crappy, a long with the software. I remember way back like 6 or 7 years ago, sony was doing PS Eye demo's for facial and motion tracking. They had these big semi trailers going around the country to show it off.

But the cameras in the PS Eye were too poor of a resolution, and only did black and white. It was destined for failure.

Now with Natal, we have Infrared pinpoint 3D space tracking per pixel with the monochrome infrared sensor. Along with another camera beside it that's a nice high resolution RGB camera, like your digital camera, for importing real life textures into games, such as your face/body or things you own.

You might be to uneducated to understand why Natal is good. But developers aren't.

Marceles6078d ago

When I start hearing about certain situations, I'm starting to think people are making answers up.

"What happens when you have to use the bathroom?"
"Natal KNOWS when you have to use the bathroom...Natal's infrared sensors tests your bladder and pauses the game automatically so you can run to the bathroom"

Shut up, we'll only know what'll happen when it comes out.

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DaTruth6078d ago

LMAO!!!! It's not just what you said, but how you wrote it too!

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THC CELL6079d ago (Edited 6079d ago )

microsoft project is not going to be stuck with people
will use it and see them selfs as clowns and quit

all it will end up been is a dashboard remote

as the man said at sony
GONE WITH THE DAYS OF WAVING YA HANDS ABOUT

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clinker6079d ago

put ya hands in the aaaaaayyyerrr

Demon55006079d ago

I think you don't get it Natal is 1.1 motion, no control needed, it ant no eyetoy, it has a very very powerful cpu, there is no lag even with 6 people using it, so when you get to sample this hardware you will see why the media has been rating it so highly, so I would wait before jumping on the hate wagon,

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Kill Crow6079d ago

is adding a wii style camera to a pink dildo ... well done !!!!

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RadientFlux6079d ago

Interesting article, though it makes a lot of assumptions on which motion control system is easier to develop for.

While some of the assumptions are logical, I'm going to wait in till we hear from developers on which one is easier to develop for.

IdleLeeSiuLung6079d ago

Sony might just start getting crappy ports from the Wii....

Natal might not be accurate enough to create the revolutionary experience it is supposed to like the dissappointment with the Wii.

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Demon55006079d ago

Tell me how does a sony dev know that natal is hard to develop for,
well let me tell you 8 guys on the ps3 motion control sdk , and four on natal, and the other devs spend more time stuffing around with natal "having fun", I just wish that the hired goons who right these articles that are all about putting Natal down, "yeah that's right" why don't you tell the truth for once, every body knows what's coming :)

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Greysturm6079d ago (Edited 6079d ago )

I dont think anyone knows how this is gonna play out. The console wars could be settled in the motion battle but it could be rather insignificant and gimmicky for both "wii to" developers.

They are both gonna be make or break it on two factors. Price of add on and software library.

DaTruth6078d ago (Edited 6078d ago )

Nobody knows anything about how Natal will work! THIS IS THE PROBLEM!!! MS has yet to give us a demonstration on how good games will work on Natal.

We absolutely don't know, and it looks ridiculously complicated!

How the hell will Milo speak to you without pre-programmed questions and responses? This technology does not exist... ANYWHERE!!!

THC CELL6079d ago

to all them who dissed me
i even felt sony eyetoy games was crap really

ask ur self why sony never made more games like before
or like natal games

i used the eyetoy ps2 EYEchat
that was it

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Kakkoii6078d ago

They didn't make more because the PS Eye hardware sucked BAWLS. It would have cost a few thousand dollars for Sony to sell a system like Natal back in those days. Watch some demo's of the PS Eye importing a person into a game. The image quality is so degraded and big choppy corners around the person. The hardware just wasn't good enough at the time. And an RGB camera itself isn't good enough for tracking movement in 3D space. That's why Natal has a monochrome infrared sensor.

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TheMART6079d ago

Doesn't matter even if the PS3 dildo would be easier for the developer. WHat matters is what people will buy and use. And that'll be Natal, not a nightmare dildo from hell with a glowing bulb to find things in the dark.

KingKionic 6079d ago

Just end the dildo thing man.....

my gosh...had a bad vision .

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Waldex6079d ago

And i hope the dildo comes with vibration so your mom will be pleased when i used it with her.

Anyone told you it already changes the color of the top part? just to keep her mood

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Saaking6079d ago

And why do you assume that mart? Because MS said so? Both motion controls have an equal chance of success/failure. Yes, MS will advertise heavily, but Sony might as well. Besides, we all know PS Motion will be far superior as it does not have lag and is truly 1:1.

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THC CELL6079d ago

not as good as xbox fleshlight

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Eric Cartman6079d ago

Both controllers are more casual-friendly and are mainly targeted at the casual audiences. Sony stands a better chance at making some hardcore games for it.

I think Natal will be a gimmick which may or may not catch on depending on the heavy marketing accompanying its release.

I wouldn't be too surprised if Microsoft eventually made controllers for the thing, or more logically, made it compatible with Xbox 360 controllers.

I doubt Sony's will be too popular given the hardcore nature of its fans as well as Sony's reluctance to be seen as a manufacturer of toys. They won't spend 1/100 of what MS would spend for marketing Natal.

Either way, let's just wait and see. Until then, let's play real games.

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Man_of_the_year6079d ago

So says ps3informer.com

LOL

KingKionic 6079d ago

damn...how your bubble get so low ?

I thought you were higher .

Man_of_the_year6078d ago

i was higher...at 3 about 4 months ago. The majority of users on this site don't like common sense so they try and sensor me. And i am sure you know who the majority of users are on this site. It's no bother though. I will just open up a new account once this one gets down to 1 bubble...so you may as well just save your bubbles...you will need them on this site if you are not a PS3 fanboy.

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Major_Tom6078d ago

Common sense LOL.

Zeevious6078d ago (Edited 6078d ago )

. . .
You lost your commenting PRIVILEGES because of your lack of respect for so many gamers on this site.

How many times have you used terms like "Droid" or insulted gamers solely for the console they play games on?

Your comment history speaks for itself...
http://www.n4g.com/up/46793...

...But SO DO YOU...in what you don't say.

When you HAD bubbles, you NEVER responded to direct...factual comments, posted from your own comments, and the Fanbrats you support.
http://www.n4g.com/Redirect...

You failed to reply because you HAD no reply...no explanation...no possible excuse for turning a game system into some religious sect that you demand everyone join.

Even knowing these are your own actions...you BLAME EVERYONE ELSE for your own loss.

When faced with FACTS you have been as cowardly and incapable as the Futurama "Zapp Brannigan" character you choose for your avatar icon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...

It's not only ironic...it's a hilarious choice because you chose a character who is a complete coward..."arrogant, incompetent, a chauvinist, vain...painfully stupid" & runs around in a skirt.

Could you have chosen a better avatar & role model for an absolutely stupid Fanbrat?

Your own comment history answers that question.
Even a character like Zapp, so pathetic he is a joke, would still be a better gamer than you.

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Saaking6079d ago

I don't see why everyone is thinking Natal will be a system seller. I don't see it taking off as everyone thinks it will. The wii already has the casual crowd and BOTH MS and Sony are late to the party.

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Tony P6079d ago

MS are willing to treat Natal like the next iteration of 360. They're pretty much aiming to make it seem like an indispensable feature of the "Xbox experience" or w/e buzz words they choose. All signs point to Natal being in MS's perception, "the next big thing". Not a guarantee of success, but it's the right marketing for it if you want widespread adoption, I think.

Dunno about Sony. They've been quiet mostly. I'd say given they're track record, they're prepared to treat it more like a peripheral instead of a defining experience.

Eric Cartman6079d ago

True. I think Sony doesn't want to take over Wii's market, they are trying to counter the rumored WiiHD device.

I suspect Natal is going to fail after an initial period of buzz and brief success.

The magic word for the casual audience is "fun", and when it's all about fun, they don't care how advanced a piece of technology is.
Price would be another challenge for Microsoft.

@Tony P

"Dunno about Sony. They've been quiet mostly. I'd say given they're track record, they're prepared to treat it more like a peripheral instead of a defining experience."

That's how I see it too.

Tony P6079d ago

Yeah, I feel like they do that a lot with Playstation. It's actually a reason I LIKE playing on their console. They rarely if ever make you feel like you're missing out if you don't have the latest greatest.

Also, I meant "their track record" in that quoted sentence. Late nights/early mornings :/

ThatCanadianGuy6079d ago

Truly the next generation of motion controlled gaming.

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THE MAX SPEED 216079d ago

"Sony's ball-and-wand device might actually be easier on developers."

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C_SoL6079d ago

that's pretty funny.

Scott_Steinberg6079d ago

In this video Natal is the future

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ThatCanadianGuy6079d ago

Where did you get that video of Mart?

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Scott_Steinberg6079d ago

Yes,the Mart was used for this natal demonstration without the red suits.In this video, natal was showing its true power! Pops champagne! Microsoft you have a winner on your hands.

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doG_beLIEfs6078d ago

I still cannot stop laughing. One question though, how do all of those people IGNORE that?

twoface6079d ago

I guess this means we'll see more exclusive games since both applications are so different.

Demon55006079d ago

Remember that article with the porn kings request for porn on ps3, yeah can you imagine the future of sony's waggles, add lest you have a set up to have fun with every day???:)

Dead_Cell6079d ago (Edited 6079d ago )

Not everybody has the living room of an Olympic swimming pool.
Not everybody has a 60 inch plasma.
Not everybody will focus there full attention to a game and co-ordinate there body accordingly,I like being able to smoke/drink/eat/scratch my balls while playing.
There is so many simple factors in this idea that could go wrong on the customer end of it.

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Eric Cartman6079d ago

True, but when the marketing tells people that they need to play it and it's the new cool thing for the hip, people will buy it regardless.

I'm sure there many people who don't use their Wiis anymore. So the challenge, like with the Wii, is how make the consumers buy additional games as the product gets older.

Third party devs/publishers have a hard time selling their games on the Wii.

zoks3106079d ago

Natal games will be too physically demanding for the averaged gamer, the pick up on natal will be very small once it goes on sale regardless of what marketing does.

Tony P6079d ago

@Dead: You know those are good points, but I don't think it's giving MS enough credit to assume it escaped their attentions.

Some of the more obvious things like needing a large TV or a huge room to play in... If they haven't considered these things at all I'll be surprised.

Kakkoii6078d ago

Someone mind telling me what's the difference between waving your hands around in the air while holding a stick with a ball (Sony Motion Controller), and waving your hands around while holding nothing (Natal).

Natal merely opens doors to use more limbs. Sony's controller is limited to Wrist/Arm movement. These claims of needing huge rooms for Natal is unfounded. Your bashing it for having the potential for further use.

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Ninjamonkey6079d ago

lol the video at the end was funny.

"I was tasked with getting this thing through airport security"

Can you imagine how annoying that woul be. You cant really say exactly what it is for copy right reasons, or open it up for the same reason. And lets be honest the pototype could have been taken as an Improvised detonation device.

QuickdrawMcgraw6079d ago

I'm wondering what the graphics for natal games will look like.Will they be like wii sports or GOW?

GameOn6079d ago

Well Natal has a processor in it to take load off the 360 so graphics should hopefully be approaching gears quality. Me personally, I wont be convinced by Natal until I see something I like.

Double Toasted6079d ago

...but anything to downplay something else right? BTW, I'm 28...

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Sez 6079d ago (Edited 6079d ago )

it should be easy to develope for. being it's no different from developing games for the Wii.

@below.
ah... yeah. whatever.(rolls eye) sony's motion control will change the way we play games. because it does things different than what the Wii-mote currently does. whatever help you sleep well.

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Fishy Fingers6079d ago (Edited 6079d ago )

Even the small summery above describes how development differs from the Wii.

Reading, it's helpful.

Edit: I'm not sure why your throwing your toys around, I just mentioned that they make it clear development differs, when your comment said they're the same, I dont even mention games let alone how or if, they'll play differently. Maturity, that also helps.

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clintagious6506079d ago

Problem is based from what we have all seen, I dont see how its going to "REVOLUTIONIZE" gaming. Also Peter Mol. is known for OVERHYPING games & UNDER-DELIVERING. Like I said ill give natal the benefit of the doubt because it does have potential but from what we have seen so far, im not really impressed. Heck if your all impressed with milo then I guess it is FAIR to say that EYEPET must be ver impressive since it was ACTUALLY BEING PLAYABLE.

Anyways back on topic. Im not a big fan of motion controls & I also own a wii but I did enjoy the way nintendo used the wiimote for zelda. Also from what sony showed at e3 with its motion controls, as much as I dont like motion controls what they showed was actually very impressive & the movements were precise & on point. I really think sonys motion controls will be awesome just for the FACT that sony are just as innovative & creative as nintendo when it comes to creating games & is why I think sony has the edge on microsoft in this area. Well just have to wait & see.

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hakis866079d ago

I really agree with that, well written. Bubble to you.

clintagious6506079d ago

Sorry I would give u a bubble but it wont let me since im typing this from my ps3.

hakis866079d ago

As written: "By contrast, Microsoft's Natal system looks simpler, but is in fact more complicated. A camera mounted on top of the user's TV captures movement, like in the Sony system, but there is no handheld device. Instead, the device will need a complex set of software tools to identify and capture the relevant information from the field of vision."

This is probably very true - although it won't be impossible to program for Natal - maybe not even difficult. But again, SONY learned from EyeToy that (they believe) we need a controller as well - AND they probably faced some challenges programming for the EyeToy, so this time for The PS Eye they might have planned it all to be pretty simple to program for from the beginning.

Again, this is the first Time Microsoft attempts something like this, so I expect The PS3-wand to impress me the most.

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clintagious6506079d ago

Heres an imaginary bubble since the ps3 wont let me give u one.
bubble+ lol. :)

Kakkoii6078d ago

Actually that's not true at all lol. They seem to be unaware that Natal has 2 cameras. The main camera they are talking about has little hand in the tracking side of things. That's what the monochrome infrared camera/sensor is for. It tracks the distance of each pixel, thus able to determine where all your body parts are in 3D space without much work. And the RGB camera is mainly for scanning images into the game, and recognizing faces.

Fact of the matter is, Natal is able to do all the PS Motion Controller/Eye can do, but without having to hold the ball on a stick. And at the same time open for way more functionality.

If someone wants to use Natal in the same way the PS motion controller will be used. Then they can just stick to tracking the hands of people, it's simple.

hakis866078d ago

I highly disagree - the fact that you don't have anyting in you hands is limiting in my opinion.
HOW will you play a game that: shoots with a bow & arrow? shoots a gun? Use a sword and shield? Lightsaber? Tennis? Golf?

I would love to hear how Natal will accomblish this without you holding something in your hand(s). I genually feel that there is a need for a button if you are going to shoot something.
So far nobody has explaines to me how Natal will be good for any other games than Riccochet, games with dance, spellcasting perhaps, boxing and fighting, and OH holding your hands in the air and driving Forza (like anyone will EVER do that?!)

Explain to me how you feel Natal opens for MORE functionality.

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GiantEnemyCrab6078d ago

hakis: But that is the thing with Natal.. It is tracking your body! So if you want to hold a broomstick in your hand and wave it around like a lightsaber or a toilet seat for a steering wheel you can because it is tracking the body not the object.

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ballsofsteel6079d ago

actually this does bring up a good question when comparing natal and PS3MC(motion controller) i can't even imagine how to program a complex game around the motion controller. for simple things like golf games and such that find but more complicated maneuvers might require a lot of programming. i think natal might be a lot harder to make a game around than PS3MC. not saying it's impossible but companies will definery have to invest a lot more time and money into making a natal game then the would think

Aquarius6078d ago

"That's a good point actually. What are we supposed to do here in Europe with our ghetto 32-inch TVs and closet-sized living rooms?

Americans could play project Natal in the back of their Hummers, but not the Japanese or Europeans."

That's the BEST thing I've read so far.

Project Natal = FLOP

Confirm or Deny?

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Kakkoii6078d ago

Deny. There's no difference from waving your arms around while holding a ball on a stick, and waving your arms around while holding nothing. (Oh wait, you don't have to hold anything, that's the difference.)

Natal can do everything the PS Motion Controller/Eye can do, and more. That's what it comes down to. You guys are complaining that Natal has the potential for activities that require a lot of room lol. It's ridiculous.

hakis866078d ago

Again, you have to explain to me how holding NOTHING in your hands with Natal, is equal to holding controllers with triggers and rumble in your hands.

Do you suppose Natal will beam rumble through it's infrared cam to your hands, so you can feel the recoil when you fire a weapon in Mass Effect 2, while you stand there pulling a virual trigger in thin air?
No way.

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6078d ago

dredgewalker6078d ago

Lets just wait for both the wand and natal to come out. Speculations and opinions at this time wont produce any solid argument. They might both work, both fail or one works and one fails. Anyhow im interested in what both parties can come up with. It wont beat the controller as a gaming interface but at least there's another new toy for me to play with my child.

feejo6078d ago

Easier for developper mean more games. The question is who will use it, it was presented as a CASUAL GAMER product, so it might not be implemented for big games. The goal is to get some of wii people that want better graphic and better experience.
It is actually nice to see the 3 console taking different path in those à la motion. That will create more exclusive games, cause of such different hardware.

jack_burt0n6078d ago

All i know is from the last wand dev i clocked 6 buttons on the upperside and what appears to be a recessed analog stick and the analog trigger for me I am good to go, just give me the next fatal frame siren to play.

Crucial bit for natal tho is how does it work in low light?

GiantEnemyCrab6078d ago (Edited 6078d ago )

MS has stated that not only will it work in low light but if it will work in the dark. That is the reason there is a whole seperate infra-red camera inside Natal. Unlike the EyeToy which doesn't work at all in low light or darkness. I hope it lives up to the claims.

Trevorthenerd6078d ago

is anybody going to buy this? -_-

Waldex6078d ago

Day 1, i have to use them with MART's mom

Obama6078d ago

Mart is 40 so his mom would be around 70. Not into GILF sry.

guerojose6078d ago

Folks, what is pointed out in this article should be obvious, though I'm amused by the number of folks who just can't (or won't) get it.

The key point he makes, correctly, is that it's a matter of DISCRETE versus AMBIGUOUS inputs:

The Sony controller will send data for the DISCRETE things that a player does. The wand was just moved to x,y,z at angle a,b,c; a trigger was just pulled; the magic spell button was just pushed, to change from a water to a fire spell. The developer gets this data to feed into the game, just like they do today with inputs from the controller.

The MS approach is INHERENTLY AMBIGUOUS. In order to provide a discrete set of x,y,z,a,b,c data, an awful lot has to be done by the hardware and software. Did the user just move their sword, or was that someone else walking in front of the camera? The user just crossed their arms over each other, are we sure we're still tracking the right arm, and not the left? Did the user just pull the trigger, or did they happen to move their fingers in any one of a million other possible ways?

I mean c'mon, just stop and really think about it for a minute. All of this stuff that has to be done thru software: determine the player's location, body type, outline; determine the skeletal points that will be used to determine movement; separate the player from the room background, and any obstacles; determine what gestures the user is making - a foot forward for acceleration?, a finger twitch for a trigger pull?; and on and on. Now, do all of this about 60 times a second, and provide some discrete data to the game engine, and you'd better do it almost instantly, to avoid lag.

Now, perhaps you are convinced that Natal will be able to do this, in a way that's actually usable in a game more complex than Breakout. That's fine - you can have faith, and I'll wait until they show me. But I've yet to hear any RATIONAL argument as to how the Sony approach would not be far easier, and more precise. There's a REASON why so far we've seen a very generalized, gesture input thru arm flailing, versus a very precise demo of 1-to-1 archery, pistol shooting, and sword swinging.

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jack_burt0n6078d ago

@guerojose I agree, natal is not a camera, its tech is going to be integrated thats why you are looking @ $150+ for it. Sony is going for a dualshock price point.

hakis866078d ago

The crossing-your-arms situation is very interesting, I wonder how they can solve that?

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guerojose6078d ago

No, some of us DO understand how Natal is supposed to work - at least, insofar as that information has been made available.

While it may be theoretically possible to get high-resolution distance measurements on a per-pixel basis, you simply can't avoid the obvious truth that this sort of system is going to have a huge processing overhead (and associated cost), especially when compared to Sony's approach. See my other replies in this thread - these are only a few specific cases that are bound to give Natal fits; it's easy to imagine many more problematic cases, all of which have to be handled by CODE.

"There's no difference from waving your arms around while holding a ball on a stick, and waving your arms around while holding nothing."

See, it's you who lack some basic understanding. I'll tell you exactly what the difference is: a MASSIVE amount of coding, image processing, and huge LATENCY. Waving a controller can give you direct, precise accelerometer data, which can be combined with very limited image processing of the glowing ball, for true 1-to-1 mapping. Again, we've already SEEN this in action.

The waving-your-arms case can't give any specific position data to a game without doing a huge amount of processing, requiring a huge amount of code that has to be written; code that has to handle not only the simple case, but all the problematic cases that will exist. And all this logic will have to be traversed many times per second in order to avoid intolerable latency in the final game.

But obviously, some people will never be convinced of this. To me, it sounds like the same old arguments, like how compression was some magic bullet that would mean no game would ever exceed a DVD.

6078d ago

GiantEnemyCrab6078d ago (Edited 6078d ago )

Exactly the reason why Natal has its own processor.

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YellowLightzOfDeath6078d ago

"Sony Motion Control is Easier For Developers"

Unlike the rest of sony's hardware.

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Jrome6078d ago

That's what she said!!! :o...no?...not even a chuckle?....okay :(

JonnyBigBoss6078d ago

I'm loving what I see. I can't wait to get one of these and play God of War 3.

ExgamerLegends26078d ago

Can it guess how many fingers i'm holding behind my back????

Me: Hey Natal where's my hand at?

Natal: Ughhhhhhh BAM!! There it is.

maverick11916078d ago

mart do you call the wii controller a dildo no so STFU you immature dumbass natal will be much harder to develop as you have to use all of your body MS will struggle sony have the edge imo going into this using your hands/body as they have done the eyetoy

Relientk776078d ago

cool then I hope the developers take full advantage of it and make some great games

Kakkoii6078d ago (Edited 6078d ago )

Let's get some things straight here:

The Playstation Eye tracks your hands position by pinpointing the big controller your holding in 3D space using the size of the ball in the video it collects. (The closer the ball comes to the camera, the bigger it gets.) It also has some motion sensing guts like the Wiimote inside, to aid the camera when the image isn't sufficient. (Such as if your holding it behind your back getting ready to swing your bat, and such scenarios.)

Natal pinpoints the location of any part of your body by using a monochrome infrared sensor that can calculate the distance of the light for each pixel. Thus able to see your whole body moving in 3D space accurately. And judge that your arm is behind you due to a distance difference compared to in front. The system also maps a basic skeleton to your body so it can accurately translate your movements into the game. Natal ALSO has an RGB camera, like the Eye Toy, but higher resolution. This is to scan images clearly into the game, and for doing things like facial recognition.

Now what are people complaining about?

Natal can be used to do all the things the Eye Toy/Motion Controller does. Without needing to hold the ball on a stick. You don't magically need more room for Natal than for Sony's option. Either way, your still swinging your arms around. THE ONLY DIFFERENCE! Is that with Natal, developers have the OPTION to do more than just hand tracking. That's not something to complain about people. It's ridiculous. Extended functionality does not equal a reason for failure.

hakis866078d ago

Seeing as Sony could do body tracking even with the EyeToy (though not as accurate as Natal I believe), I don't understand how you can portray it like the PS Eye for the PS3 can ONLY do hand (wand) tracking.
Obviously it can do both, but I believe Natal will have a much better image quality.

And I still disagree with you about "Natal can du anything PS motion controller can do". And with this I mean the games where you would need (at least want) some sort of trigger, button and feedback (vibration) - such as shooters, sword/shield gameplay..

Kakkoii6078d ago

Yes they could, and not as well. But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm just saying that it's stupid for people to say Natal will fail for having such good extra functionality over the PSEye. People complaining about not having enough room for said functionality.

And of course, I'm not saying that Natal will replace all controllers for every game. That's ridiculous also. But what it can do is amplify the experience in those games. Just because your using a controller in an FPS, doesn't mean Natal can't still do some extra work. Basically Natal can emulate the same thing's Sony's six-axis system does. So you could be moving your controller around to make things happen in the game. Like push forward to knock down a door, or to stab someone with your bayonet. Or accurately throw a grenade according to your throw speed/angle.

There is so much that Natal can be used for due to it's infrared depth sensor. And since it can track finger position/movement, you could play "Air Guitar Hero" haha!

guerojose6078d ago

@Kakkoii:

1. "And judge that your arm is behind you due to a distance difference compared to in front."

That makes no sense. In the case of arm-behind-the-back (ABTB), Natal's infrared would get NO INFORMATION from the arm; it would be blocked by the body, as infrared is just as line-of-sight as visible light. Hence, there is no distance difference that can be computed. Instead, ABTB would have to be INFERRED, by using all of the previous information obtained by determining the body shape, overlaying the skeletal points, etc. "Did we stop getting distance data from the arm part of the skeleton? Oh, it must be behind the back." Ok, but WHERE exactly behind the back?

The glowing ball could disappear from view also due to ABTB. However, with accelerometers in the wand, the inferred position data would be far more reliable.

2. "Natal can be used to do all the things the Eye Toy/Motion Controller does".

That's obviously a ridiculously overreaching statement, since neither product exists yet in its final form. But even from the standpoint of basic logic, it doesn't pass the smell test. Show me the sort of true 1-to-1 mapping that Sony has already demonstrated, overlaying a sword/gun/whip/racket instantaneously in the user's hand. Show me anything even approximating an accurate trigger pull. IT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN; but of course, I'll wait patiently until we see more actual demonstrations of both products.

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6078d ago

guerojose6078d ago

@ Kakkoii (or is it Kakkoister? Multiple accounts for more bubbles?)

"the system is going to have a fairly good guess where your arm is"

BINGO! I think you just summed up the issue succinctly. EVEN IF Natal ends up doing all this complicated processing, and even if they're able to pull it off in the next two years, at a cost of less than $500, it'll still boil down to "fairly good guess" accuracy in many situations.

Let the market decide if this is good enough to allow for an immersive game experience. IMHO, we've already got Wii-waggle, and can see the inherent limitations of vague gestures for many game types.

GiantEnemyCrab6078d ago (Edited 6078d ago )

Actually, it's not "guesswork". When you first start playing Natal you will stand with your arms out and legs apart and it will take a picture/measure and mathematically generate your skeletal structure. With this information, based on standard rules of the human body it will know where your hands are as long as you are within sight of the camera and engaged in a game. Even if your hands are behind your back because your arms and shoulders are telling Natal where your hands, based on human anatomy, will be located.

When your hands are behind your back or out of camera view it won't be able to tell how many fingers you're holding up or if your hands are say up or down, but it will be able to tell you where they are positioned relatively. Of course, none of the motion controls can do that for obvious reasons.

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monkey nuts6078d ago (Edited 6078d ago )

due to you not being able to walk forward and such. I disagree, obviously it will incorporate the old two fingers walking in mid air technique. One hand is your gun and the other, your means for moving around the virtual world. Table football style: /\. Simples.

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GiantEnemyCrab6078d ago

It's easier for developers and more precise based on what again?

Here I was expecting developer quotes or sources to back this up but all I see is PS3informer pulling assumptions out of their arse.

Xi6078d ago

That keep saying sony is the best at everything, and that sony's doing everything right, and that sony has the strongest, easiest, most powerful, or largest things.

Honestly, all these sony sites make it seem like sony is the high school jock who's got to prove to everyone how manly he is, but then goes home and puts on lipstick.

Isaahc6078d ago (Edited 6078d ago )

some cool for the pseye

DelbertGrady6078d ago

Who are they quoting?

guerojose6077d ago

@ Giantenemycrab: Anything not directly line-of-sight cannot be directly measured by an IR camera. You would acknowledge this, yes? Therefore, any "standard rules" about where a body part is have to be implemented by a lot of code. And it's not just the arm-behind-the-back case. What if I turn sideways so that a whole half of my body isn't seen. What if I stray a bit too close to the TV, so that my foot-forward-to-accelerate gesture is missed? Again, just use your imagination, and there are all sorts of cases where Natal will have to "guess".

The difference with the "glowing wand" is that it won't have to guess at all. It'll regularly use the accelerometer data combined with the camera data to determine position, orientation, speed. If my wand goes behind my back, and isn't visible to the camera, the system can still take "dead reckoning" measurements of wand position, until it becomes visible again.

And NONE of this addresses the other glaring problems: how to walk/look/aim simultaneously in a shooter; how a finger-trigger would ever be discernible from other movements; and many more.

@ Thekingslayer: You don't have to be on the dev team to understand how some of this technology works; you just need a decent education, ability to apply logic and reason, and perhaps some first-hand experience with technology. Of course, one alternative is just to sit back and believe all the pie-in-the-sky hype that companies like to dish out.

swingingape6076d ago

Be afraid Natal, be very afraid

hakis866074d ago

Who the HELL would want to play "Air"-Guitar Hero?

I see you are pretty hyped about Natal.. hope it lives up to your expectations. =)