well said! But don't expect reasonable opinions to be met with agreement here. Instead expect fanboy generalisations that people like 'twelve' have just portrayed. Casual gaming has always existed and was popularised by the ps2. What is people's problem with cooking games being made as long as the traditional 'hardcore' games also get released. What right do you have to discriminate against these games and the people that want to play them. They are playing games too and just because you'd rather not play those games (fair enough!) doesn't mean you are better. Gamers can be so snobbish!

GWAVE is absolutely right. The NES had piles upon piles of shovelware, but it also had great hardcore games and cult classics. Just like the Wii.

The Wii is what re-popularized gaming and brought gaming to a new audience, just as the NES and the PS2 did.

Nah... the Wii brought soothing sour cream on top of the spicy hot gaming plate.

Those that don't have the stomach for some games can still enjoy a virtual environment by owning a Wii console.

It did not kill hardcore gaming. It even made it's core seem even harder.

In reference to what GWAVE said, the only reason why the Wii is similary to the NES is because:
1) it has VC NES games
2) is made by Nintendo

Now that is out the way, I will tell you how the NES was "hardcore" and the Wii, well, isn't.

While not an official definition, here is what "hardcore" means for both gaming and players.

Hardcore gaming - It is the act of partaking in video games in which the game being played will present challenging situations for the player, creating an environment in which one must learn, improve their skills beyond a basic level of understanding or coordination.

Hardcore gamer - The said term is used to describe an avid video game player in which they will play a game for not only entertainment, but for to achieve a high level of skill and competition. The gamer may also play games for self recognition or even "bragging rights", showing one is more dominant than each other.

Now, these are both VERY loose definitions..I just made them myself for this situation.

Think of NES games. How EASY were NES games? Hmm, how bout them Battle Toads? Ninja Turtles, D*ck Tracey (LOL, it censored it out!!), Dragon Sword, even Super Mario Brothers. Tell me, how many "casual" gamers do you know have even gotten past the first level, let alone TOUCHED those games? If you think about it, every time I played those games with my friend, we were competing with each other, yeah, we wanted to beat Shredder at the end of the game, but it was all about who would get the most points. Those were games you would pick up, and you couldn't put down without losing all your data...people who didn't play games on a regular basis would not play them, they had no interest to get so far, to only lose your progress.

Now with the Wii, even Gamecube, those presented games that were available to "Casual" gamers. Those who would pick up a game for an hour or so, with not much to unlock, and they would play the game with friends, and then stop. Yes it would be "competitive" in a sense, but it was more about having "nonsensical" fun. While games like Mario Party were long, they allowed gamers to easily get into even a Mini game, play a few rounds with friends, then call it quits. There is no incentive to playing a game other than entertainment. Also, the fact of how accessible they are to "newcomers" allowed anyone able to play, while a typical hardcore game like Ninja Gaiden or COD4 takes significant amount of time and effort to become a "good" player. Techniques are learned, and high amounts of reflex and responsiveness is developed. All of which NES games had. Wii games (most, NOT ALL) present them self in a forgiving fashion, allowing a player to get into a game, taking 1 or 2 simply concepts and making them slightly harder with progression. Hardcore games have been more of taking several concepts and even adding more concepts later on throughout the game, creating a more dynamic gaming experience.

I could keep going but this is already getting long... so I will wrap it up.

Companies see Nintendo's success from the casual market, so they board the bandwagon, wanting money, catering for more casual players, instead of progressing or creating new ideas for those who have been playing games since a young age.

1.How can it have killed it when hardcore games are constantly being made?
2.Its not just nintendo that make so called casual games. Singstar, buzz, lips all say hi!
3.I disagree with your definition of hardcore. I think it would be pretty hardcore of me to spend 4 hours on brain training everyday and do all the sudoku puzzles. Just because it doesn't have guns doesn't mean it isn't hardcore.

Killed it?? This article is a fu**ing joke.

"Nintendo’s “come one, come all” approach to gaming has revolutionised our once-insular industry, with grannies, girlfriends and non-gamers all getting in on the action. The sales figures speak for themselves. According to GFK Australia, nine of the 10 best-selling games in 2008 were Nintendo exclusives. Almost all of these were party/casual games, with the top slot held by Wii Fit."

So what?? Do sales make a game better. Let's say Gears of War sold 50,000. Would Gears of War suck?? No.

"The blood-soaked hack 'em up MadWorld failed to make much of a dent in gamers’ wallets, despite receiving considerable critical acclaim. Even Rock Star’s hotly anticipated Grand Theft Auto: Chinatown Wars didn’t set the world alight. In its first month on sale, it only sold 89,000 copies. (By comparison, the first Nintendogs game sold nearly three times that number in its first week on sale alone)."

Again, Wii and DS games sell slowly. Call of Duty: World at War sold 40,000 in it's first week (on the Wii). Now it has sold over 1 million.

MadWorld isn't picking up. I have seen a handful of users who won't buy it because it is black & white, blood soaked, and VERY mature. It doesn't appeal to everyone. The FPS gamer community is much larger.

The reason Wii Sports is the best-selling game of all time is that it comes with the Wii, which sold 50 million. The only exception is Japan.

Seriously, the demand from gamers who want to play "real games" will keep hardcore franchises going. Modern Warfare 2 is expected to sell 14 million. And the grannies won't be it's source of revenue.

Hardcore gaming isn't going away anytime soon. This guy must be a paranoid troll who is afraid of the Wii.

THERE IS NO WAY HARDCORE GAMING IS GOING TO GO AWAY! How is the Wii by getting some new people to play video games in a less hardcore way killing hardcore gaming?! As long as there are hardcore gamers they will keep making hardcore games! Think of the Wii as training wheels, a little kid will love the Wii but then as he gets older he will start playing more and more hardcore games! the Wii is almost setting up the next generation of hardcore gamers! and judging by the huge sales of the Wii there are going to be alot of hardcore gamers next generation! So stop complaining! Seriously I think Sony and Microsoft fanboys are intimidated by competition more than Sony and Microsoft themselves! Sure Microsoft is also going for casual now but do you see them completely abandoning you hardcore gamers?! NO! So just stop your crying! You should be more worried about the economy taking away your hardcore gaming than Nintendo! Also Nintendo makes almost none of the Casual games on Wii, as someone else pointed out, the only ones they made are, Wii Music, Wii Sports, Wii Play, and Wii Fit, all the rest of their games have been hardcore! Well Animal Crossing is debatable but I enjoyed it. Nintendo said they simply made it less graphically powerful so that the cost of development would be lower so that smaller companies, developers and producers could get a chance, and WiiWare also helps prove this point, so just shut up!

As much as I don't like the Wii's offerings other than a handful of titles, it didn't "KILL" hardcore gaming. If it did, then MGS4, Killzone 2, Halo 3, COD, Battlefield, Bioshock, GTAIV, Gears of War, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

wouldn't be released.

But they released... and there's still an onslaught of hardcore games coming and it's not stopping.

So how did the Wii Kill anything? The only thing the Wii and Nintendo did, is not push hardcore gaming, but rather capitalized on social and family oriented games.

But Nintendo has been a bad example for other large companies. Once the leading company in innovation, now they "lack" in quality titles, only to make a quick buck. Publishers and developers are doing the same thing.

I will give you an example. Gears of War 2, in Microsoft's case. GeoW2 isn't a garbage game, but in my opinion, no where near stellar. Why? These bigger companies are learning by watching Nintendo. Customers will buy a game just for the name. Gears 1 was a really good game, and everyone assumed the second would be even better. While it did come out more enhanced than the first, it came out riddled with game breaking glitches and bugs. Why? They cut development costs to meet a money making agenda. I don't doubt Modern Warfare 2 will be great, I just think that while being better, they won't create that same amazing experience that we got with COD4. They realize, majority of gamers will settle.

Also, Lips hasn't sold well, at all, not compared to Singstar or Buzz, which have been selling for years. Sony though, knows that they shouldn't focus on that area though. Almost all of their money goes into new IP's, better graphics, better games, and you know what? Even though they make a loss in consoles, they make a profit in games. Yeah each game doesn't sell 5+ million, but the attach rates are high. There was some research done (if someone knows where it is, link it please) in which most PS3 gamers are 23-40 age range. These gamers, have played games all their lives. They know quality when they see it. I'm 19, yet my first console was the 2600. I've seen games progress, I see how each iteration of a game changes a lot. I don't want a new iteration of a game every 2 years with almost no change. I don't have the money to do that, and most people don't. What happened to the 3-5 year gaming cycle that was perfect way back when? Every new game in a series not only played great, but sold great as well. People had money to spend cuz there was a "grace" period in which they enjoyed their games.

If people made more quality games, they wouldn't have to buy a new game every few months. It's just common sense. Not to mention that if the game was good enough, they wouldn't have to cater to "hardcore" or "casual" gamers, because all people would be able to enjoy them.

Also, I said my definition isn't perfect.

" - Killed it????
More like drove a stake through its heart... than feed on its flesh and shat on the bones...

But that is just my opinion "

Yeh coz the psOne or ps2 didnt have ANY casual games at all huh>>>

Like Bratz, Barbies Horse adventures, Singstar, Eyetoy, Dance Dance revo! The psOne Was FULL of crap games...FULL. Take a look back at a list of their games.

Singstar really got casuals booming even more than it already was,.. and Dance dance. Movie tie in games like kung fu panda sold extremely well (top ten) on the 360. TMNT (as crap as their new games are) sold bucket loads on the ps2.

HYPOCRITES

There is no way in hell a true gamer can be a fanboy. Who in their mind would keep them selves away from good console games simply because the graphics are not up to par? PS2 gamers did this for a very long time. Snes gamers did this also, while the PC got some of it's greatest games. Oh yeah it was the PC fanboys who could argue about video cards and actually didn't play console games because of their fanboy nature.

The funny thing about graphic whores is that they are very easy to get with out having a fun game. The very games you hyped in the beginning of this gen are now forgotten. Hell most of you guys claim killzone 2 is better than crysis LOL, which shows you have not played it.

OK you guys are blaming nintendo for continuing what the PS1 started. Every one knows the PS1 and two sold at first as media device. The Wii is selling as a life style device, no one really is itching for a HD dvd right now well the lasses are not.

SONY made gaming into a life style choice and nintendo learn this from them. Then they said wait a minute we can do that even better and they did. Now the SONY fans are here to complain just because they are losing. I'm sure some xbox fans are here also and really they have nothing to stand on as their system is home to fuax hardcore fans and we all know it. That is not a put down to the fans it is a put down to the games they keep putting on the system and the simple fact that they are just not fun at all. That is what is killing games. The lack of fun... and the over compensation of faddish unlasting gimmicks like realism.

Now isn't it telling that this piece is coming from a PCmag. A place where gaming is pretty much dead and all of it's potential gamers have opted for HD consoles. These same console are going through the same pains that PC gaming went through. The graphics jumped and suddenly it is hard to spot a true good game this is fun even the bad games look good.

To a gamer that is a nightmare come true... along with the price. Sure a few gullible types are loving it and I remember many where excited about the first FF movie, yet few though it was any good. I meet HD gamers and they constantly tell me hey could I play NMH or punch out, mario kart etc.

The HD guys are loosing the hardcore. It's turning into a bunch of elitist screaming about stuff they don't understand. The same thing happened on the PC side of things. The difference was hardcore did not fight over graphics they fought over what was fun or challenging. Great looking games where not compared to other games.

On the PC side mostly only the skilled players are left and all of the casual players have went to the consoles. I mean just look at the SF4 talks about the game being too hard when play against certain players like sagat. That was not a problem during the true hardcore days of gaming and also we all know SF did not sell too well on the PS brand.

It's so funny when epic and other claim piracy killed their sales yet I never see any one playing UT3 or some of the other games. The HD guys seem to have a problem with people like good enough. Quake wars is good enough if not better than UT3 and crysis game play wise. Quake 3 is still being played, because it does have hardcore players.

Another thing is real hardcore games do not get traded in. Tell me when you find a copy of SM3, battle toads, or many Wii games. If you do they will be the casual games mostly and then look at the HD walls and you will find lots of tens in the trade in.

If that is what you guys believe being hardcore is about then I say good luck to you. Just like how PC gamers pirated many games trade in will kill your market and make the risk even higher. You can't tell this to certain developers though because certain websites gave then perfect scores, so why should they care?

Seriously guys pay attention to what is happening to your own console and fix your problems before you try and fix nintendo's problems. 6,000 people are with out jobs because of HD systems not the the Wii.

The hype is a blessing and a curse because no one talks about any HD games that are actually good yet receive no hype, now how hardcore is that?

The future of gaming will come from start ups not the already too big publishers that can afford the HD development. The start ups need a place to start and the Wii is that place. sit back and watch the HD market dry up till the next gen graphic update is made.

Many joined gaming because of the graphics and it seems few of you joined because you love games. Some of you even joined because of the stories and I'm wondering what book do you read?

Some times I wonder kids love sand boxes and adults love a good challenge, now how many pretty sand boxes do the HD guys have?

The HD fans are failing to get people interested in their own games. You only have your self to blame for that, this includes developers also. You guys should really be happy halo and gears sold as much as it does. You should also be happy the PS3 doesn't have certain games as exclusives now because their fanbase is spread across the xbox also and wait for it the PC also.

What is even worst is the complete lack of imagination in gaming right now thanks to the focus on realism. Also it doesn't sound to good when you say the Wii is killing the HD system yet it is still getting hardcore games LOL. That list keeps getting bigger while the HD guys keep focusing on a handfull of games. Then once the game comes out their is more complaining than praise. These gamer will make developer go to more forgiving ground and rightfully so, they gave you what you wanted and you throw it back in their face.

the Bible Game was on MS' and Sony's consoles but not on Nintendo.... now that is hardcore. Hardcore Christian.... Jesus rocks

Is that the same Hydrolex from Gamespot's System Wars? Even with the same avatar? :o

@ NMC2007

You see, two bubbles can say a lot.

Nintendo has a lot of hardcore games. They have already released Super Mario Galaxy, Super Smash Bros Brawl, etc. If you really read a list of Nintendo casual games on the Wii, you would get only 4 or 5 (correct me if I'm wrong):

Wii Sports
Wii Fit
Wii Play
Wii Music

Most games on the Wii that are just retarded mini-game collections like Deca Sports. There is a casual audience on the Wii, but a hardcore presents as well.

LOL these are the same guys who can go play ninja gaiden on the HD system yet pasted on it because it was too hard LOL.

Lots of you guys are pretty young or very new to gaming or either you just don't have good memory. Well if you don't remember mistakes then you will surely repeat them. I hope some one makes you all a E.T. game just to prove my point. We are having small little atari moments all over the industry right now and you guys can not even see it.

More good companies have fallen during SONY's time in this industry. The industry and gamer bet on SONY's leadership and lots are coming up empty as few vocal gamers on the internet proclaim their own victory while they are dead last.

Another thing is which casual gamers are selling on the Wii right now? Please don't list nintendo's game yet even if you do which 3rd games are doing those numbers? Why are they not doing those numbers? Please don't blame that on them not having nintendo's name because these casual obviously don't care about nintendo or they would have bought a GC.

The simpl point is nintendo's Wii line of game are just that good. maybe you don't like them and maybe I don't either but hey even the 3rd parties can not match them.