I love Calling all Cars.

twisted metal was a fun game. Im need to see something on the new iteration beforeim convinced.

More devs need to speak thier opinion on PS3 vs X360 development like. R* and Id Software now David Jaffe

please END THE FANBOY WARS put fanboys in thier place

I hate to read into this but something might pop up at E3. he said "We won't announce anything" which is different than showing something already announced.

Whoops! That wasn't supposed to go here; my bad.

There's a lot of truth in his words. He states everything in an "I like" manner, without insinuating which one is better.

This is the truth to the fanboy mythos. It is all about "I like", not "it is better". Because in the end, it's all just personal opinion rather than concrete quality.

Next time, just stick to the message boards dude...

We don't need any more nerds staring into the camera...

Unfortunately Antifanboy what you say is not true 100% of the time. It works until there isn't room on the disc for what "you like". It applies until a certain feature simply isn't available. Then the question is can you live without it.

= Pure bliss.

ditto:

This is the truth to the fanboy mythos. It is all about "I like", not "it is better". Because in the end, it's all just personal opinion rather than concrete quality.

Maybe you should ask him... id Software have stated that 2 DVD-9 discs will be fine for Rage.

You can keep going back to PREVIOUS comments which have since been explained though... and ignore those.

"Unfortunately Antifanboy what you say is not true 100% of the time. It works until there isn't room on the disc for what "you like". It applies until a certain feature simply isn't available. Then the question is can you live without it."

Unfortunately Morganfell what you say is not true 100% of the time. It works until you have to wait three minutes as you install new data every other chapter of the game, or that each loading time is a minute long. It works until a certain feature simply isn't available. Then the question is can you live without it.

I'm sure the amount of extra time spent waiting for PS3 games to load or install more or less equates to the amount of time switching discs on a 360. And in terms of software features, both consoles are pretty much eye-to-eye.

Yeah, and it also works until you get frustrated with having to write absorbanant amounts of code to do something relatively simple.

See what I did there?

You should have went PS3 exclusive, then you would have none of his problems or yours. There would be no load times(Uncharted)and no installs(Killzone 2). MGS4 only has installs because Kojima didn't have enough space on the disk.

Also, I gave you a name that suits you more. If you were an anti-fanboy, you would not have gotten upset at his comment.

"Space should never Limit the Creative Senses"....

It's what you do with space that matters in the end. Having extra doesn't mean "AAA" titles and neither should it mean, your all the sudden more creative in a BIG way.

Now Dave, I do not care about who you make games for, I could care-less, let's talk about "Twisted Metal 5" please....

In this industry, it will always be Business first. Your fooling yourself, if you think other-wise. Dave would go multiplat in a blink, if his games were not really selling on a platform.

@Evo
Perhaps, however, like I said, a good developer makes good use of the hardware that is available to him.
If a developer decides to make a game on the 360, it doesn't mean he goes without "sense" just because he went for DVD9(360) and not bluray(Ps3).

And with better compression techs, files can be stored in much smaller sizes.

Bluray is nice, its great for dveleopers, but still lots of developers can manage on DVD9.

Edit:
@Evo's Edit.
Because lots of developers still manage on using DVD9, the content is there and with online, additional stuff can be dowloaded.
It is okai as long content goes on it that provide a game. And so far 360 hasn't really failed? ( and please no fanboy nonsense from anyone, 360 has its great share of awesome games)

Edit:
I got a disagree before i made my first edit post, care to speak up?

I'm not talking about the developers. I'm talking about the console maker. Check the edit. And as for the rest of that, if compression is so great, why don't we just use CDs? Compression, contrary to popular belief, isn't a magic box into which you can fit anything.

Don't tell me you honestly think everything on bluray goes without compression? Large( and raw) files are not efficient. They take to much space up. Streaming them makes sense, but a huge texture taking up sh/tloads of ram isn't healthy either.

" if compression is so great, why don't we just use CDs? "
Why not use floppy disks!
C'mon don't be that ignorant. Yes DVD9 becomes a limit to some developers, true, but it still serves as a solid solution.
It works so they use it. So MS did not do R&D on new disc formats for the 360, so what? it still works doesn't it?

Sony has always pushed new formats with their consoles, its what they do. Ms did what they did, and its still enough for lots of developers.
And I see no bad thing with linear stories having multi discs.

Yes DVD 9 works just fine...until the iceberg shows up.

Anyone here that has every worked in any facet of the game industry (retail doesn't count) knows that issues arising are like an iceberg. When something does appear you can be sure that what isn't seen is a great deal more massive. When a comment noting difficulty is made you can bet the problem mentioned is actually 10 times bigger.

When Bizarre Creations mentioned DVD9 was limiting PGR4, a quick effort was made to clarify that. Translation? Microsoft hit the panic button and Bizarre Creations had to "clarify" their comment. If the issue of DVD surfaced you can bet the actual problem was a great deal more worrisome.

When Rockstar made the comment about DVD9 limiting GTA IV Microsoft jumped up and down on the panic button and Rockstar "clarified" the issue. As before you can bet the issue below the surface was expansive.

DVD9 does not provide freedom. Just ask John Carmack if 2 DVD9 disks are providing Id with all of the space they need.

Compression isn't the end-all answer to solving space issues, larger capacity is. Compressing things is all fine and dandy, but in the long run can degrade overall quality. Take DISH Network satellite service versus C-Band satellite. DISH Network's signal is horribly overcompressed and looks like crap compared to C-band's uncompressed signal. C-band is twice the quality displaying on a large HDTV compared to DISH's compressed signal.

The same conclusion can be drawn when addressing consoles. Having overcompressed files on limited capacity media can hinder the overall presentation of a game. Lord knows MGS4 looks amazing on BD, and while I have no doubt it's technically possible on the 360, how many discs would it take to achieve the same result? 6, possibly 7 dual layer DVD9s? With all of the pissing and moaning about disc swapping these days, I don't think that would be looked fondly upon. Compression is not an end to a means and is a good answer with some games, but some games are simply to large to cram into such a limited space. And if you overcompress said game, the overall presentation goes down the toilet.

Who's being ignorant? I'm just taking this absurd theory of DVD being "just fine" and taking it a step further. How is my "Let's use CDs and compression" anymore "ignorant" than the "let's use DVDs and compression?"

Two generations ago, CDs were the standard. What if they'd been the standard last gen too? Would anyone want to play the 4 disk version of Halo, GoW2, GTA: SA, Metal Gear Solid 3, KOTOR, or any other game? No? Then why is it acceptable now?

We had games filling DVDs last gen. Hell, I even recall a few two DVD disk games on the PlayStation 2. The writing was on the wall that something bigger was needed. MS ignored it and went with DVD again, not because it was still ":just fine," but because it was cheap and they wanted to be first. No other reason.

who only talk about the length of games on blu ray are deflecting or are just plain stupid. ps1 games were just as long as some ps2 AND ps3 games. Its not ONLY about length. If I need to explain this then you are stupid. Black hole compression does not exist people. Yes MS's hands were tied ala sony with rumble but that doesn't change the fact that this Haych Deee gen needs more space JUST like the Haych Deee movies need more space and were NOT on dvd9......wow

Wtf happened to the HD sound on transformers hd dvd????? Even that wasn't sufficient. 'Better to have...' as they say

3rd party developers have a blu-ray full of space available on the ps3, but know they need to make sure that it fits on a dvd. It is the same as if the ps2 had a cd, and the xbox had a dvd, but developers knew they needed to fit it on a cd. Developers always want to use just one, because extra discs are expensive, it is handier and it is a simpler goal than making multiple discs.

Edit: Lazy one, that just isn't true, developers right now are going well over dvd size and compressing the hell out of it so that it fits, I'm not trying to insult you I'm just informing you.

Because it's just too costly right now to develop the amount of content needed to fill a blu-ray disk with anything meaningful. Outside of pre-rendered media, the engines just aren't powerful enough yet to use content that would make blu-ray necessary.

Next gen, when hardware is upped again, and artists can start having more free reign on their content, then it might be a bigger deal.

Right now it's just too expensive to fill a 50gb disk with meaningful content.

There are a few games that need more space. You can still count them on your hands this generation. And this generation is almost over. It may not have worked out financially for them, but it's amazing they were able to sway so many with little advertising. Just a few shill reporters and a few never say die fanboys.

More proof studios aren't sold on Blu-ray.

http://www.videobusiness.co...

This generation is almost over? lol, maybe for the 360.

I think microsoft did well to convince you that compressing stuff to within an inch of it's life to cram it onto a dvd is the way to go. Also the ps2 didn't need dvds, should've stuck with cds. In fact, the playstation didn't need cds, should've used cartridges.

The average size of a 360 game is around 70% of a DVD9. Why would they compress it to "within an inch of its life" to reach 70%?

The other 30% is security required to be there by microsoft in order to try and curb piracy. So only 70% is available to developers, which they duly fill.

70% is only available to developers. The other 30% is used by MS for security purpose to fight of piracy of the games on the disk. But we know how that has turn out, so they should just make it 1005 available to the developer because the security thing just isn't working.

The Japanese have no concept of compression. That is why games like Star Ocean and Final Fantasy are so gargantuan. It's not really their scale, or the amount of assets they have, it's just that they don't take the time to compress their crap! There are ways of compressing things while only sacrificing 0.01% of quality.

Admittedly though, it does take a load off their back when they DON'T have to research ways to compress their things, but I mean, that's what middleware is for!

That being said, this generation will probably be the last to use regular DVD's.

But next generation, we'll all be playing our games off of solid-state media. Faster than Blu-Ray, bigger than DVD9. It's so PERFECT! GAHAHAHA Yeah I have no clue what I'm talking about.

The Japanese games are so big because they tend to prefer pre-rendered cut-scenes to in-game cut-scenes, and it is harder to compress that way since you have to store all of these pre-rendered movies as well as the game's animations on the disc. Western developers generally don't use pre-rendered cut-scenes and can therefore just use the animations which were already on the disc.

it would techinically be "Twisted Metal 6", remember 1-4 were on the PSOne, and Black was one the PS2.

Everyone knows that top PC hardware is more powerful than any current home console... and yet PC games still come out on MULTIPLE discs don't they?

I don't read many complaints about that... why isn't that a BIG DEAL to people?

PC's use DVD9's and even CDs! Want to know why?
Because you install every single part of the bloody game. My HL2 consists of 6 CD's. Not only do they install it all, but before installation, all the data is packaged up nice and tightly, so once you double click and initiate the install, it all starts to unpackage where it's supposed to be.

Consoles DONT do that. The ONLY exception to this was that about "half" (estimation) of the data on MGS4 is packaged. That's why installs are so large and frequent on the game. They don't want to install the whole game, because even with the BD disc still being read, installs were still ranging from 4-6 gigs (PER CHAPTER!!). To get all the data on the BD they had to do that, not to mention it helped keep that top notch graphical quality.

Using this:
http://www.crunchgear.com/2...

The average size of an Xbox 360 game (including total size of multi disk games not per disk sizes)is 5.8gb

The largest game is 6.8gb. That means the average game is 85% of the size of the largest per disk game. So the same point stands using 85% of the available space to developers.

KAY

So far the only games that I know or played that are multidisk, are rpgs from japan. But I dont mind changing a disk for an rpg. Since every disk takes you around 10+ hours to finish. When I start to see games like halo, gears, resident evil being multi disk, then I would start to become worried.

The best example of Disc space limiting creative freedom and all that is Devil May Cry 4. Do you honestly believe you had to play through the game twice to see the ending, was because the developers thought it would be a good idea for the player to visit the exact same locations, killing the exact same bosses twice, just with different characters? Seriously now, if that is not an indicator of disc space limitations then what is.

1, just 1 Killzone 2 level is around 2GB big. Single Player would consist of 2 missions and Online of 2 maps, and all that stuff had to be compressed so that the character models and the menus would fit on there as well.

MS said DVD9 will be enough this gen., a month later we read PGR4 had to be sliced so it would fit on a DVD, Lost Odyssey, 4 DVDs. And these are Games published by MS.

It has nothing to do with Sony convincing anyone, it's pure common sense and logical, in fact, it's as logical as you will get wet if you go swimming.

Edit: Oh and by the way, demo versions are scratching the 2GB mark more and more, 2 GB for 20 minutes of bare minimum gameplay, but I guess DVD9 is "just fine"...

name more than ten games that require more than a DVD. You can't name ten released in the US. You might have some JRPGs. Oh I'm sorry, you don't actually have many of those. The area for security is 1.2gbs for 360. That leaves over 7 gbs, more than 70%. Sony doesn't put the majority of it's games on PSN for download because it would prove the games are all 5-6gbs. Sony has a bunch of ten hour or less games, most much less. Blu-ray is a joke and most studios are beginning to push DD and VOD now. Blu-ray will be more niche than it already is in 5 years.

@boob. You really think this generation will be ten years long. Don't believe that nonsense. The PS3 and 360 might be around that long, but there will be new consoles on the market long before we see either reach that. If the new box doesn't come out November of 2010, it will come out November 2011. MS might wait 5 years, but there is no way they wait more than six. If they learned anything, they learned that the one year head start works wonders for your market share. With the technology advances over the last couple of years, MS would want to push Sony as fast as they can. In a week or so when both companies announce their earnings(Sony for the year and MS for their third qtr.) Sony's losses and MS making another 11-12 billion for the year so far, MS will push their advantage.

Hate to kick a guy when he's down, but business is business. This E3 would be the perfect time to announce the 720 and force Sony to spend money they don't have.

Bluray sales doubled last year. No one can argue with that. MS was part and party with Toshiba trying to convince the public that not only was HD DVD needed but that it was better than Bluray. Of course as soon as HD DVD was declared dead, MS couldn't wait to distance themselves.

"Arh Hrumph! Digital downloads are the future..."

What the anti Bluray crowd does not understand is of course most games do not currently require there space because they are made for DVD9. Duh! Would be the appropriate term here. Actually they understand it but it is one of the only ridiculous arguments they have left.

I am sure when Henry Ford was designing his automobile at least one mentally challenged person stated "There is no need for headlights on the cars because right now no one drives at night"

I never said this gen would last 10 years. No one thinks this gen will actually last that long. But like last gen, Sony's console will stay on the market longer and MS will be out sooner with a new console. But way to be a fanboy and call everyone else that doesn't agree with you a fanboy.

Oh and the length of a game also determines how big it is? Really?! You actually believe that? lol

Find one source where anybody from M$ says that HD-DVD (meaning HD-DVD as opposed to blu-ray, not meaning a high definition disk media) is necessary.

Obviously they thought everybody "needed" it so bad they decided not to put it in their consoles.

X360 DVD9 can only hold 6.4GB due to protection data for nothing.

Games on PS2 are bigger then that like GoW and StarOcean 3 is 2 full DVD9s (8.7 GB, not 6.4GB)

@ 2.2 sidar

I'd generally agree with you on DVD-9's not being an issue affecting games as long as there's multiple disc to compensate. The problem, however, arises when you take into consideration the game Rage coming out by Id.

It's known facts straight from John Carmack and Id that confirms the Rage game has been fundamentally changed (multiple dunes switched to 2 large dunes, 3 races changed to 2 playable races in the game) in order for the game to fit on 2 DVD-9's for the 360 version, hence affecting the PS3 and PC versions.

As long as there aren't too many multi-platform games being affected by the DVD-9 issue, I don't have a problem.

" Compression isn't the end-all answer to solving space issues"
I never said this, i just stated that developers can still manage.

Apparently in MS R&D back then they expected DVD9 to be enough.
it's "Ok" because lots of game still do fine with it.

Filling up a disc up to trillions of gigs on data doesn't mean sh/t.
Developers always need to work efficient, just because bluray is there( which is great, im not saying its a bad thing) doesn't mean every game need to be 50gb(or more).

Lots of games look alike anyway(Ps3 vs xbox). Again if Sony didn't push new formats with their console they would be using DVD9 too.

@argent,
I get that, but the guy goes " WHY IS IT ALL " OKAI " "as if its something that matters so much, to us that is.
You can't Denie that 360 is still doing very well. And I already said lots of developers have issues with space, but by no means does this make a developer less sensical. MS is also counting on DLC.

[Note i do have a PS3 not 360...before anyone goes apesh/t towards me]

edit:
" how many discs would it take to achieve the same result? 6, possibly 7 dual layer DVD9s?"
Then you have to ask yourself what took all that space? Cause if you have some idea of how computers work you know you can't load heavy data without inefficient processing and RAM storage.
If he claims its not possible on the 360, fine but please link where its stated what actually takes up all that space. If FF13 can come to the 360, then its funny MGS4 can not.

PS3 really isn't capable of streaming the amount of textures that would be in a 50gb open world game, needs more ram... The BD-Rom is also a very slow reader, we MUST install to get that amount of information anyway. So, it really is just as bad as multidisc for 360, I think you can even install lost oddysey and play with 1 disc.

As for the future, bluray looks like the best option, but news flash, the future is going to make your **** look old.

@Sidar

No prob Sidar (^_^), I see where your coming from about multi-platform games. I haven't had my eyes clouded over by fanboy miasma to see that most multi-platform games, if not all of them, generally sell the same. Generally, I just pick up the multi-platform games I want (RE5, Deadspace etc.), shrug my shoulders and give a big "Meh" at sales charts that tell me they sell roughly the same.

I don't really care for DLC, but to each their own. As long as the DLC is something new like the GTA4 episodes and not like Tomb Raider DLC, which was actually stages removed from the game to sell as DLC, it won't bother me, (-_-);; ---> (>_<) - #@$ fcuking DLC that was supposed to be in the game to begin with!

I'm not concerned about most multi-platform games b/c I think they'll be the same across all platforms (that is the point after all). About the only multi-platform game I'll look at closely is FFXIII and Rage. I'm interested to see how the multi-disc/multi-platform games will affect other publishers with regards to the games they'll make down the line.

I really hope future multi-disc titles don't bring about fundamental changes to their games like Rage, otherwise my response will be ---> (>_<)- fuk#$@!!! There'd be no issues for either side, if MS would allow more disc, while lowering developer fees for additional disc when greater than 2 disc (-_-);;, afterall they have the NXE ability to load games to the harddrive, why not use it?

@slugboss

BD may be slower, but overall the data transfer is pretty much the same as the 360. The blu-ray capacity is IMO, the PS3's major asset that I think we'll all see when games like FFXIII and Rage reach the spotlight. I agree though, something like blu-ray is definitely needed for HD games. No fcuking way am I going to load multiple DVD's to a harddrive to play, that would be worse IMO, than installs (-_-);;. Games with no load times like Uncharted and Dead space, prove that good programming can eliminate load times while minimizing install sizes (still can't believe Dead Space only had 600KB install).

I used to be one of those people that hated EA with a passion, but it was games like Mirrors Edge and Dead Space that have changed my judgment of them.

I also agree about Dead Space. That was on helluva game that I quite enjoyed and hope they make a second one. Bubbles for you.