List them.
Go on, list the developers.

EA has succeeded in making Mirror's Edge and Dead Space look the same for both consoles. Capcom has made Resident Evil 5 look the same for both consoles.

I'm waiting. And don't mention Valve because they're PC fans.

...You're not listing the developers. You're being proven wrong and yet you come up with something that has NOTHING to do with the topic at hand.

I'm perfectly calm dear. Can't wait to get back to MGS4 and all my other games after work. :)

Calm down, "ultimolu". lol

Haven't you seen the studies that suggest Monday morning is when you are at the highest risk of having a heart attack?

Ask yourself, do you really want to die for the Playstation 3?

that being said though.....do u live to point out its "failures"?

There's only a handful of developers who have said anything and they most certainly are in the minority. The bulk of developers have not commented, have said there are specific challenges to the PS3 and a learning curve but stopped short of saying it was hard to work on, and then you have the articles like this one where they flat out say it's no problem to work on... or the Ghostbusters developers who flat out complain that the 360 is holding them back and dumbing their games down compared to if they could develope only on the PS3.

But if you want to believe the word of a guy who made millions as a Micrsoft employee, who still has ties to Microsoft and who has before sabotaged a product to not work as well on competitors hardware, you go right ahead.

I know it's been said before but people complained about the PS2 at the beginning as well because it was different. Last year one of the best games that came out on any platform was God of War 2, and it put a whole whack of "next gen" games to shame on an 8 year old platform.

Some developers complain. Others make kick ass games.

Jeeze ulti, you really should calm down, I know you say ur calm, but it's clear that you're a very angry little man.
I'll list a couple if you want. Valve (Oh for some reason I'm not allowed to list them, y's that then? Cos they're PC developers? What's that got to do with anything? Capcom said they're making Res on a PC and porting it so shall we ignore that Capcom just said it's not hard? Or does it only work one way? Thought so...) EA failed to port the orange box adequately didn't they? I wonder y that could've been...maybe cos it was harder? Itagaki said it's too complex, that's why he chose to develop on the 360. John Carmack said it's a pain in the @$$ compared but that he didn't mind the challenge and would dael with it...Or is John Carmack also not a credible developer?

READ MY COMMENT.

I said do not mention Valve because the only reason why they claimed the PS3 was hard to develop for is because they're PC fanboys at heart.

You are mentioning games that came out *when* the PS3 was actually too hard to develop for. I'm mentioning games in the present.

Oh, and Itagaki mentioned that the PS3 is not hard to develop for HIMSELF. He only went with the 360 because originally he had an issue with Sony and that's why games like Ninja Gaiden never came out for a Playstation platform except Ninja Gaiden Sigma, which was worked on by his subordinate.

http://www.gamersreports.co...
http://www.gamesradar.com/p...
http://www.destructoid.com/...
http://www.1up.com/do/newsS...

You were saying?

As for Carmack...here's your link as well.

http://www.gamepro.com/arti...

1. You need to calm down.
2. I'm not a male.
3. Your username is questionable.

butbutbuttehcell: One measly link? So um...the other links I posted weren't from Itagaki? Itagaki said these things AFTER he was fired from Tecmo. The first two articles come from the developers of NGS but the other two I posted came from Itagaki himself when he was FIRED.

Give up young one. You have lost the battle.

Did you not hear me young one? You have lost the battle. I even have a magazine which states that Itagaki said the PS3 wasn't hard to develop for!

Didn`t John Carmack say the PS3 was much more powerful and the 360 was tapped?

I`m pretty sure he did.

But you probaly **conviently** forgot that part.

"Didn`t John Carmack say the PS3 was much more powerful and the 360 was tapped?"
I've never read that but I wouldn't be surprised if he did. I don't think any1 in their right mind would suggest the PS3 isn't more powerful...
@ Ulti
"I'll list a couple if you want. Valve (Oh for some reason I'm not allowed to list them, y's that then?" Can't you see from that that I DID read your comment but chose to list it anyway, cos the reasons not 2 are ridiculous lol. They're a developer just like anyone else, and a great one at that so I'm not gonna pretend they don't exist for no good reason...
"Oh, and Itagaki mentioned that the PS3 is not hard to develop for HIMSELF"
http://www.gameinformer.com...
What's that then? (other than poor English)
"GI: Can I ask you why?

Itagaki: PS3 has too complicated of architecture."
So that's another point debunked...so ur not male? What exactly are you then? Passionate about dying for the Playstation brand, that's for sure...
Oh and you want me to mention games that are now in development? So I've got to ignore the past for what reason? Because developers have got to grips with the 'complicated architecture' and aren't having as many problems? FYI I didn't mention any games did I? you're a very strange character, probably why you've got so many bubbles.

Yeah one link because I don't have all day to show some1 as clever as you how wrong you are...I'm not trawling through loads of sites like you because that's called being a gimp...but I'm glad you've got all this time for me

War...? Right... You won the 'war' of getting things wrong. Right so you've got a magazine, how convenient that I can't see it...But about you not being angry...Y are you telling people 'shut up, just shut up' Sounds like anger to me :) you need 2 calm down before you hurt urself. You're embarrassing the PS3 userbase as well as causing yourself much unwanted stress

I guess you don't like when others prove you wrong.

It's also clear that some 360 fans don't like when there's good PS3 news either because they hit disagree buttons indiscriminately.

That's okay you know. You hate the fact that the PS3 is becoming easier and easier for developers these days, which is why you're so desperate to slam my arguments.

I already showed you at least two links that shows Itagaki did say the PS3 was easier to develop for but you have yet to prove me wrong.

What are you talking about? I never mentioned the 360. Itagaki didn't develop for the PS3 because he had an issue with Sony years ago. I don't remember what it was about but I think it had something to do with Sony insulting Dead or Alive.

But I'm going to be buying a PS3 soon so it really doesn't bother me in the way you think it does. Y would I hate the PS3? Sony have done the right thing which was to try and bush the boundaries a little bit. In those articles Itagaki doesn't say the PS3 is easier than the 360 to develop for lol, I dunno what you're reading...he just says it's easier than the famicom. It's hilarious that you're getting this worked up, and putting this much effort into finding articles just for me. I'm truly flattered, no1 ever gives me attention in the real world

You quoted Itagaki saying "PS3 has too complicated of architecture," from an article going back to 2005, before the PS3 was released.

More recently, Aug of 2008 Itagaki said in an interview "One more thing I would add is that I don't think that developing for the PS3 is hard at all."

Take that for what it's worth.

Link please?

All I can recall is the guy that worked for Red Octane I think saying it was tough... But what does Red Octane make for the consoles? Yeah, I leave that answer for you to come up with how much cred the guy had when making a silly statement like he did about the PS3 and the developing side of games.

And the funny part about Itagaki is that his underlings were able to pull off a great port of Ninja Gaiden and then he turns around and talks trash about the PS3. He's also currently unemployed for some unsavory reasons so that should at least tell you he is not one to take to heart.

Gabe Newell on how "Xbox 360 Makes My Life Worse"

http://news.teamxbox.com/xb...

Newell on "Half-Life 2 on Xbox Was a Disappointment"

http://biz.gamedaily.com/in...

Gabe Newell "Explains Why Valve Hates The Mac"

http://kotaku.com/gaming/pl...

Gabe Newell on how "DirectX 10 for Vista was a mistake"

http://www.heise.de/english...

If anything, Gabe Newell is the angry man... I love the games Valve make as much as the next man, but their Source Engine is getting a bit archaic now, things are going to get more and more difficult until they do decide to sit down and give it a re haul. That said, I think this highlights that the difficulty of development will vary due to the differing game engines being used, hence the disparities between games from different developers.

@ SRU

Your comment is a perfect example of just how many PS3 fanboys there are on this site. Look at your disagree's. your 100% right yet you get disagree's. Most developers do find it hard work with the ps3 its a known fact!!!

And watch, watch all the disagree's i get. But if i was saying something good about the ps3 i would get agree's. And if i said something good about the 360 i would get disagree's...

BTW im no fanboy, I have all consoles and enjoy them :)

it just struck me that some freakin pll on here might actually not have a life. some of you pll point to liks.... not one,not two but a buttt load. do you surf the net and bookmark positive ps3 news under "oh how i love my ps3, iwant to marry you" and negative 360 news under "how i hate you.die.die.die"? WEAK. some of you might even have created a freakin database! those of you out there, with a show of hands, who actually have life and are no bothered by bookmarking freakin game news? i count 1...2....3....4....this place suks.aaasrrrg

I fully agree that the experience in the vast majority of cases isn't going to be affected. Most multiplatform games play just fine on the PS3 and if a person only owns a PS3 then by all means they should not worry about it and should simply enjoy the games.

However, as someone who does own both consoles and has compared a lot of games and demos, I have to be honest with myself and admit that many of them did look somewhat better on the 360. Now, I don't expect that you would have noticed any problems with any multiplatform games on the PS3 because you aren't comparing them to the 360 counterparts. It's like if you sat down and watched a good DVD movie and thoroughly enjoyed it and didn't notice any problems with it...that doesn't mean that the same movie on Blu-ray wouldn't look even better and perhaps be even a little more enjoyable. Of course, the differences between multiplatform games on the two consoles isn't usually that significant, but I think you get my point.

Now, see, that is something I can agree with. :)

How is the system not crippled? When they release a game that is 15gigs and 7 of that has to be isntalled to the HDD because the single speed drive in the PS3 cannot read information as fast as it needs to to run the games??? Where is the benefit from Bluray? They could have stuck with DVD and had a 60g in every PS3 for their forced installs and already could have been showing a clear advantage over 360.. Now because of the gimped drive they actually look worse than 360 in most cases.. When a console twice as powerful as another cannot show it in any shape form or fashion due to being held back by the disc system it reads I would call that being crippled.

You seem a bit misinformed about Blu-Ray speeds. I suggest you do some reading. The PS3's Blu-Ray drive reads at a constant speed that is easily comparable to the 360's drive speeds, and it wins hands down when compared to speeds with dual layer DVD's. That's not why there are harddrive installs. The reason why some developers use harddrive installs is because they can. It's just another tool that's available to them and they can choose if they want to use it or not. Certainly games like Uncharted and COD - some of the best looking games anywhere run just fine without any harddrive install. Reality seems to be your biggest detractor at this point. We see that awesome games can run just fine off Blu-Ray - so your argument that the speed of Blu-Ray is a problem is simply false. Also, if harddrive installs are so evil, why is MS jumping aboard that bandwagon? If you truly were a "voiceofreason" you'd refute your "slow drive" claim based on the real world evidence provided.

You're right to wonder why PS3 games haven't shown a big leap over 360 games if the system is as powerful as it's supposed to be. The answer isn't one of drive speeds though, but simply of time. It takes time to see that type of power harnessed, but we have caught glimpses so far with games like Uncharted, Heavenly Sword, MGS4 and the upcoming Killzone 2 and Heavy Rain (a game that nothing on the 360 has even come close to graphically, showing some serious muscle). It certainly looks like all it took was some time to start unlocking what was under the hood.

So Capcom are... making things up? Why exactly?

The only devs that have explicity stated that the PS3 is hell to work on, are PC devs, who are heavily biased towards the typical PC dev pattern.

They're not lazy. But they're certainly stubborn. It's amazing how there are plenty of 3rd party devs who can manage to release extremely stable multiplats, and even some who do some exclusives. None of these complained.

I don't think anyone disagrees that two years ago it was a devs nightmare, but most GOOD devs have adapted, and it's NOT that difficult anymore. The ones who are still complaining have YET to try [Valve... Um, who else?]

Oh, and before you bring up that ridiculous SE article, how can you trust a guy who says one console is easy to work on, even though one of their recent "BIG" titles, has been an absolute technical mess?

"How is the system not crippled? When they release a game that is 15gigs and 7 of that has to be isntalled to the HDD because the single speed drive in the PS3 cannot read information as fast as it needs to to run the games??? Where is the benefit from Bluray?"

Yep, you don't know what you're talking about... First off, the Blu-Ray drive in the PS3 is a FIRST GENERATION drive. Seek times are the reason, NOT TRANSFER RATE. And just like the original XBox (which had TERRIBLE loading times off of its 4x DVD-ROM), faster drives will more than likely be slipstreamed into later hardware revisions.

And as far as 7GB installs... Name ONE PS3 game that has an install larger than 5GB... And the fact that you can use a commodity laptop SATA drive to upgrade your hard drive to as large as you want to go INEXPENSIVELY more than makes up for the mandatory game installs in my book. I can get a 320GB 7200RPM drive for my PS3 for a good bit less than a 120GB 5400RPM will cost for a 360.

"They could have stuck with DVD and had a 60g in every PS3 for their forced installs and already could have been showing a clear advantage over 360.. Now because of the gimped drive they actually look worse than 360 in most cases.."

Ok, so now you're saying that the Blu-Ray drive having slower seek times is why early cross-platform games (other than a few shining examples like Oblivion) were slightly better on the 360? Once again, you have no idea what you're talking about.

The reason why EARLY cross-platform games had issues was due to the differences in architecture and coding models between the two systems, and the fact that these early titles were PORTS from the 360.

The 360 follows more of a PC programming model. The CPU processes data to feed to the GPU, which does all of the rendering and display work.

The PS3 actually extends upon the PS2 architecture with a main general-purpose core and multiple vector processing cores backing up the graphics chipset (which can do rendering work by itself, but is designed to work in tandem with the vector processing cores).

When you try to approach the PS3 architecture like you would a PC, you wind up with sub-optimal results (since the 360's graphics chip DOES have some advantages over the RSX chip in the PS3 for this kind of workload). When you start using the Cell and RSX in tandem, splitting up the rendering work between them, you get AMAZING results.

"When a console twice as powerful as another cannot show it in any shape form or fashion due to being held back by the disc system it reads I would call that being crippled."

When you see what Killzone 2 has to offer (utilizing deferred rendering, pushing the graphics way past what the RSX alone can handle), you will have the proof that you seek.

Sony's PS3 SDK has been maturing and only getting better over the last couple of years. All of the hard work and dedication of Sony's first party developers is being made available for all third party developers to use. Things will only get better from here. </rant>

Back on subject... Resident Evil 5 will be a day-one purchase for me... On the PS3, of course... ;-)

oooh so your a dev are you! how many games have you made so far?

He's the one doing the Soulja Boy game.

um, you havent seen the comparison have you, they look identical m8

and why does everything related to sony have to be some "washed up viral campaign", cant you just accept it, or are you really in that much denial?

Lou-Cipher: bubble++

Chrissis: "I think its the weak hardware that makes them look worse than their 360 counterparts"

you mean the weak hardware that runs KZ2, GOW3, U1, U2, HR, GT5, LBP...?
lol

you make no sense at all, you'd fail my interview so hard, I'd actually enjoy the waste of time

did i make you angry?

sorry darling snookums.
you probably need to get laid, huh? .... yeh you need a good fvck!
that will make you a bit happier methinks.

hmmm...
good luck finding someone to do the dirty deed though....

Ultimoulu is living in a fantasy world...

Mirror's edge and Dead Space both look better on the 360. Read the Eurogamer comparisons....or better yet, go compare the games yourself. Mirror's Edge looks better on 360 and Dead Space has a better frame rate on 360.

"Mirror's edge and Dead Space both look better on the 360."

No it doesn't you moron. They both look the same. The PS3 was the lead development for Mirror's Edge, which is why both versions look the same. The *only* difference is that the PS3 version is lighter and the 360 version is darker.

The same with Prince of Persia.

Eurogamer has a habit of creating biased video comparisons just to stroke the manhoods of 360 fanbrats. Gametrailers was caught with their hands in the cookie jar for unfairly comparing both versions of Assassin's Creed.

Unless you were using a magnifying glass to actually see some kind of a difference instead of playing the freakin' game...

Lmao, let's count the pixels!

And well, well...here goes karl again with his insults. Whenever I refute your retarded arguments, you turn around and insult me, as if you're scared of my comments.

What a coward!

Everytime I, or anyone else, refutes your blinkered assertions, you come back and spout the most nonsensical fangirl denial dribble that the world has ever seen.

Witness the VERY detailed eurogamer comparisons (et al.) which show better hdr lighting and specular highlights for most 360 games (incl. ME). Witness the better 360 resolutions on multiplats (gta4). Witness the better AA and crispness of bioshock! Haven't they done, like 15 or 16 rounds of the most balanced and detailed comparisons, incorporating frame tears, framerate analysis, screenshot comparisons and resolution comparisons, across literally 100 multiplats?
Look here baby, why do you continue to absolutely ignore the vsync problems the ps3 has? http://www.eurogamer.net/ar...
I mean, that's just 1 isolated example... there are literally HUNDREDS more. Do I need to go on? The evidence is mounting and all you can say is "let's not count pixels"? That's SAD, Juuken.

What's more, everytime somebody makes such detailed comparison (and thereby incontrovertibly refutes your assertions), you come back with excuses and almost start begging people to just accept that they are equal. ....remember Juuken? You just want people to be pure gamers, but only when the ps3 lags behind. Funny huh?

Don't pretend that you listen when people show you evidence.
You only like to see what you want to believe, darlin'. Any evidence to the contrary is ignored by your sorry ass. And what's worse is, you only want to believe what Sony feeds you. A vicious cycle, if there ever was one.

Ultimately, people stop talking sense to you, Juuken, because the eventual outcome of debating with you always ends with further ignorance and denial on your behalf. Can you blame people for giving up on you? Why would anyone want to talk reasonably to you, when they already know the eventual "Juuken-ignores-reality&q uot; outcome?

Is it any wonder so many people on n4g just hang sh1t on you, Juuken?
That's why you made a fresh start, right?

It's the truth and....karma.

They can use PhyreEngine..

http://www.joystiq.com/2008...

"Quietly unveiled at yesterday's PSN session was PhyreEngine, a new "free to use graphics engine" from Sony Computer Entertainment. According to the presentation, the package includes full documentation, "70+ samples" and "full source code and artwork" of sample game templates. Working on both OpenGL and Direct3D, this engine will allow developers to more easily develop for the PS3 by using PC environments they're more familiar with. A "simple recompile" is supposedly all that's needed to make the game run on the PS3. Sony is promising "ongoing development and support" for the PhyreEngine."

Considering that Codemasters used it for DiRT on the PS3 (which was a pretty sweet rally racing game that looked and played GREAT), I would say that you can achieve pretty good results using PhyreEngine.

And considering that it is FREE for developers to use, I would say that it is a great alternative for small developers.

I've never really wondered that. Sony's only bone to small developers was the PhyreEngine, a graphics engine made free. However far short of capcoms self made proprietary multi-platform porting engine.

Again, I wonder how much time and money went into this project put forth by capcom, that allowed this particular dev to make these comments.

I also find it strange that even after, Sony came out with the carrot on the stick engine that is phyreEngine. There are STILL no "PS3 is easy to develop for" articles from the smaller groups...

Yeah, tense is cool. But scary is best ... for me anyway.

For me Dead Space is now the king of survival horror.

And it will probably stay that way after RE5 comes out.

Not because RE5 will be bad, but because the Resident Evil franchise isn't survival horror anymore.

RE4 was spooky in places, but nothing like the original.
Don't get me wrong - I loved it, great great game. Just not too scary.

RE5 - Survival action?

It's not better on the 360.

That effectively rules out the definition of the saying, "90% of multiplats look better on 360" that xbots so willingly loved to say because this is the game that looks far more superior than all the likes of multiplats that were poor on the PS3.

This also rules out the speculation of 360 "is superiorzz, itz da bestz". PS3 is NO WAY inferior in any way to the 360. Whats left to say xbots?

Please. Don't let MS make devs lazy this gen. Deter the lazy & untalented people from this market of game development. Keep devs on their toes. If they tire out, it will only asure that only the best devs remain, therefore, best future of this gen and NEXT. HAZE devs may have had an unfortunate closure, but think of it this way, this is for the best of the gaming market's well-being, and for the best of us gamers. Hope they have a brighter future.

Thanks 8.4 that pretty much said it all

+bubbles for you Oner

Wow. 2 "guys" attacking a female online...that sure takes some balls <- /sarcasm

Utterly pathetic, sad and immature. No way to cover that up you tools.

WTF?! Nothing takes balls on the internet... Not even you talking like you are tough. Calling people "tools" sure doesn't take balls.

TBH, we don't even know if she is really a girl and even if she is if she wants to talk crap about the 360 every chance she gets and be a hardcore PS3 fangirl why should people treat her any different than any other fanboy?

What you fail to realize & admit is how THEY attacked her PERSONALLY. Nice try but your cover up didn't work. Also I wasn't acting "tough", I was just stating a fact about these guys...because they are tools for picking on a female. Are you going to actually continue disagreeing with me on that?

Cry me a f*cking river SaberEdge. As if 360 fans weren't doing the same crap with the PS3. I have said many, many, MANY times that the only thing I'm not fond of when it comes to the 360 are the hardware failures and the fact you have to pay to play online.

I'm actually getting one for Christmas so you fail at life.

LAir and Haze may have been poorly recieved no matter what console they were on but they only went under by being on PS3.. Surely you are not trying to suggest that Wii development costs as much as PS3 development? Both of those games could have bombed on Wii and both of those companies would still be here making games. I just hope RE5 scored 100 in every review or it makes every claim CApcom just made complete BS.. IF you dont understand why I say that go look at the MS article where Square says 360 is easier and every Sony fan expects their games to be perfect in every way because of it..Well I for one will act the exact same way if RE5 isnt perfect in every single way.

Actually Lair may have been better received on the 360. First off Lair received bad reviews mostly due to the Controls. Since the 360's controllers don't have motion control - than the controls for Lair would have been your standard controls and received a better review. Also, since it would have been easier to program for the 360, they may have been able to better utilize their resources. Also since the 360 has a higher attach rate - there is a better chance of more copies being purchased by customers.

Thus in the end - more savings and more revenue earned may have kept the doors open. But this is all hindsight - its easy to point fingers and say what they should have done after the fact.

That must be the reason why there are 360 exclusive studios popping out everywhere right now. ... wait a minute. They aren't. But M$ shuts down studios...hm...

VoiceofReason and Man of the Year, I agree, and you both make excellent points. I just shake my head at people who instantly assume the situation is "PS3 killed Factor 5 and Free Radical." The truth is far more ingrained and terrible, and I think it really reflects on the industry as a whole. The HD development model, for both systems, just isn't sustainable. In an industry where few games find success, let alone profits or breaking even, taking a chance on a new IP, on ANY platform, is a major gamble.

Sure, we like what is familiar as consumers, but I think its interesting that many of us cry foul at the lack of innovation... then ignore titles like Mirror's Edge, Beyond Good & Evil, etc. But man, we can't snap up the next Madden or 50 Cent title fast enough. Granted, a balance between sequel and new IP is necessary... but it seems like playing it safe, as it strangles innovation in a sense, is also the only (almost) sure fire way for a dev to make any damn money. I WANT Dead Space and Mirror's Edge to be successful, just as Madden is. But I digress...

Does being on a system with a small install base exacerbate the situation? Of course. But again, its an industry of risk, and its silly of both companies, regrettably, to put all their money into a new IP in the first place, EVEN if it was on the 360. The business model doesn't work, as being independent from a publisher can be a deathknell today, especially with declining access to credit. (You don't really think independent devs have $15 million lying around in cash, do you?)

This is why I think its great for studios to go multiplatform, so we can keep seeing new Okamis and Viewtiful Joes. Though I will disagree on Lair. The gameplay itself just isn't compelling, and the controls were an easy picking point for reviewers. Of course, don't get me started on reviewers, as we all know my opinion on THAT inconsistent bunch...

As for Square Enix... I won't be foolish enough to equate "easier" to "no technical problems." That's just silly, and NO game is perfect. MY personal beef with Square is that they seem to lack the quality and SOUL that their past titles had. FFXIII going multiplatform? Nice, more gamers to enjoy it. But delaying one version for the other despite one version being ready early? That upsets me.

Thanks for the replies gents.

@Ju - "And what are you bubbling about assembler and C++. Do you even know when to use what ? I mean you can still use C++ AND assembler. More so, you could even embedded assembler in C++, or address registers directly in C++. What's the point. People, learn get some skills if you want to play in the big league!"

exactly... I think you got to where I wanted you to. I can code in assembly, C++, C# and others...

Currently assembly is used to program directly to the hardware.. for example when writing drivers for some specific hardware... but you wouldn't use it to let's say write a game... would you? it would take a decade...

And that's where the PS3 API and the cell architecture comes in...

It can be compare to Assembly vs C++... the PS3 cell architecture is more to the metal which can be very good and powerful for people trying to crunch data... but it may prove to be like trying to kill a mosquito with an F16.

You do not see people writing web pages with assembly because it may perform better with the hardware...

"PS3 killed Factor 5 and Free Radical."... let me ask you something and respond honestly? Do you think you have the money and resources to make a game for the PS3... can you form a company and get it done?

The fact is that... "Factor 5 and Free Radical." put all their eggs in one basket... now, this could of be the same case if they made the game for the xbox 360... if you can't afford to make a game for one platform because in case you fail it can bring the game down... then don't make it... there are other alternatives... why didn't they start making a game first for PSN... until they can afford it.
Haze and Lair were both New IP and there is always the risk of not being huge hits...

But let's be realistic... it's better for a company to have a game flop on the DS than it's for a game to flop on the PS3 or the xbox 360.

Some developers do not tough xbox 360 retail... they make Xbox live arcade games... why? because they are smart...

"Factor 5 and Free Radical." could of make like 10 PSN, XBOX live arcade games and probably a few wii games with the money they spend in 1 game...

Dude you have to improve your odds...

You people may not agree... well.. you will not agree.. for obvious reasons...

but when these games came out:

* PS3 was the most expensive platform to make games.
* PS3 had and still have the smallest install base.
* PS3 is require more resources to make a game for.
* Sony sucks at marketing compare to Microsoft and Nintendo.

Those are all facts... they picked the riskiest of all platform to put all their available resources into it.

This reminds me of the a baseball game:

* 9th inning.
* Losing by 3.
* 2 Outs.
* last game of the season.

and here comes the coach and pick his worst hitter... hoping that somehow it will make a home run.

Dude you have to improve your chances by bringing your best hitter.

This is not a matter of opinion... the facts are there... this is the reason why Kojima waited for the installbase to be larger... and this is why Square did not make any games on the PS3 initially and Final Fantasy will not be release until they think they can make money.

We've seen time and time again that even mediocre first person shooters and the like do well on the 360. I'm still a little surprised that they stopped the 360 version of Haze and switched gears mid-way through development. It looks like Turok and Mercenaries 2 are both almost at a million on the 360, and they were terrible!

If they had gone ahead and released Haze on the 360 as planned they probably could have moved 1.5 million instead of just 1/2 million. While good first person shooters can find a home on the PS3, mediocrity is dealt with far more harshly on the PS3 than the 360.

But I guess by it's very nature - if you own a 360 you've already proven you have lower standards for quality. I know I fall into that category, although in my defense MS had done a good job of muddying the waters regarding rrod when I bought my console. I was one who didn't believe the internet and believed MS's claims of 2-3% failure rate. I would have never, ever bought a 360 if I had known what a hassle it would be.

"exactly... I think you got to where I wanted you to. I can code in assembly, C++, C# and others..."

LOL... But I'll get to that later...

"Currently assembly is used to program directly to the hardware.. for example when writing drivers for some specific hardware..."

Just to point out about the only correct statement in your rant...

"but you wouldn't use it to let's say write a game... would you? it would take a decade..."

The WHOLE game? Nope... But any part of the game engine that you want running more efficiently than the C++ compiler can get it, yep... Ju is right, you can EMBED assembly code into C++ code to hand-optimize portions of your code.

"And that's where the PS3 API and the cell architecture comes in...

It can be compare to Assembly vs C++... the PS3 cell architecture is more to the metal which can be very good and powerful for people trying to crunch data... but it may prove to be like trying to kill a mosquito with an F16."

Back in the early firmware 1.x days, you would probably be right. But judging from the way that recent PS3 games are showing improvements over the launch titles, and releasing side-by-side with the 360 versions WITHOUT DELAYS, I would say that the PS3 SDK has matured a good bit and enabled developers to pull games off with LESS work than before.

"You do not see people writing web pages with assembly because it may perform better with the hardware..."

ROFL!!! You wonldn't write a web page in assembly because YOUR BROWSER WOULDN'T RENDER IT!! TERRIBLE analogy... I'm willing to bet that the OS libraries your browser calls to display a web page are C++ embedded with assembly... :-)

Now the part of your comment where you say that Factor 5 and Free Radical should not have put all of their eggs in one basket, I actually AGREE with you. Bad management decisions and game design issues were the reasons behind these two studios running into the financial issues that they did.

If Haze had come out earlier instead of when it was released, it may have seen better sales. But the timeframe they released it in put it in competition with some much better titles. I only played the demo for Haze, and it didn't really impress me much.

With Lair... I really wish Factor 5 would have taken a bit more time with that one. I understand that the release was probably influenced by financial factors, but I felt that it could have been a much better title if a bit more work and more gameplay polish had been put into it.

But then you say this!

"This reminds me of the a baseball game:

* 9th inning.
* Losing by 3.
* 2 Outs.
* last game of the season.

and here comes the coach and pick his worst hitter... hoping that somehow it will make a home run.

Dude you have to improve your chances by bringing your best hitter."

So if Haze and Lair had been released on the 360, they would have been hits? I highly doubt it. They may have cost a bit less to develop, but they still would have had to create all of the game assets and HD textures, etc... HD console game development is expensive regardless of whether it is on the 360 or PS3.

"This is not a matter of opinion... the facts are there... this is the reason why Kojima waited for the installbase to be larger... and this is why Square did not make any games on the PS3 initially and Final Fantasy will not be release until they think they can make money."

LOL... Kojima waited until the PS3 install base got larger? Ummm... Take a look at the PS3 hardware sales for June (or for the first 8-9 months of 2008 for that matter), and see how much larger the PS3 install base became BECAUSE of MGS4.

And SquareEnix, the only worthwhile games they have created lately were either on the PS2 or on the hand-helds. Explain why their titles on the 360 are not doing so well even though the 360 has a larger install base and it is easier to develop for...

I make it short and just agree with hfaze. I mean, WTH. Who would write a game in assembler ? If you want to write a fast efficient scheduler to load/unload SPEs SRAM, well, that part would possibly assembler. If you want to do pops (pixel ops) you write either a shader or vector asm. If you want to use 360s EDRAM (and op processor) you'd probably want to hit the asm. If you want to saturate the EIB, you possibly would choose assembler.

If you want to parse an XML based object tree, you would possibly go with C, C++ or whatever high level language you have at hand.

And then, the magic happens. Its called linker (voila!). Dynamic or static, you choose. (And in case of some C compilers, you can inline that).

I can honestly say i agree with your points and are valid.

I also bought the PS3 for FFXIII before finding out later that it will be on the 360 too. Yes i am also upset that it will be held back to coincide with the release of the 360 version on the western front but what can ya do?

"You wonldn't write a web page in assembly because YOUR BROWSER WOULDN'T RENDER IT!! TERRIBLE analogy"

Poor uninformed mind... ever heard about WPF and silverlight? it allows developers to use compiled programming languages like C++, C# that the browser can execute/render using a simply plugging?

Flash, etc are example of what browsers can render... Did you know you can get plugging that allow you to execute and run assembly code on the browser? Google it...

So, your comment about "You wonldn't write a web page in assembly because YOUR BROWSER WOULDN'T RENDER IT" is inaccurate... Trust me... a browser is capable of parsing something other HTML.

but that's beside the point.

The point I was trying to make is... each language or platform may not equal the best solution for a specific problem.

Cell architecture may be the best option for developers trying to render blu-ray movies or trying to crunch data to find a cure for cancer... but it may add another layer of difficulty when it comes to making games. In many cases proving to require more effort than making a game for the xbox 360 or the PC... get it?

Abstraction does not equal bad. Get it?

The xbox 360 API and platform is made for 1 thing only... Games... API are designed to be easly understand by game developers.. specially because they are familiar with PC development...

PS3 APIs and platform are not an evolution of the PS2... or anything developers were familiar with.. instead... the PS3 adopted an architecture designed by IBM for other purposes... and it was adapted... hence why GAME developer needed to learn it.

Trust me... this is not that difficult to understand...

Take Java, or C for example... when a new version of Java comes out... developers do not have to considerably learn a new entire platform... because it's designed with the Java developer in mind...
Java developer do not expect to have to drop all their knowledge and API in favor of a complete new platform.

Sony changes the Playstation platform every time a new console comes out. because they are hardware focused.

This is why... it requires more effort to make a game on the PS3.. than any other platform... this is why it cost more to make a game...

You may not agree with may analogies... but that does not change that reality. Live with it... plenty of 3rd party companies to prove it... the length it takes for games for games like Kill Zone 2 to come... and even how some companies have gone out of business(Factor 5)...

you can disagree with it.. but those are facts.

Sony is HW centric because their business model was always to have the longest life cycle of the product as possible. They broke with the traditional route because the tech available at the time could not be implemented cost efficient over time to reach that time frame. Yes, they went the complicated route. But they reached performance levels which simply were not possible back then. 8 (coherent) cores on one die just became feasible this year (and are still not wide spread or main stream - and possibly will never be), while a CELL houses 9. Designed and build in 2005, three years ago. Today they would possible do things a bit different, back then it was a perfect strategy. If anything, the mistake was the GPU, but well, there is still nothing on the market (for gpus) which has a longer life span of 6 month.

I want to see the real UC2 in game footage. If it is just close to what we saw in the videos, you have to admit, this strategy was right.

Its tougher with the complexity of the architecture and technology. I can understand, this is a magnitude more complex then it was back in time for the PS2. Money plays more and more a role. Budgets explode. But not because of the engines, the biggest chunk is not in SW, its art, (pre)-production, and design. SW is only 1/4th or 1/3rd of the equotion these days. That is fundamental different then before, where a coder could sit down, ask a friend from art college to paint some pictures, and voila, Pac Man was done. (80% SW at the time - and even the programmer optimized the pixels to make sure transparency etc. fit his "bitmap" model), while these days you are certainly screwed if you don't have the right Photoshop (or Maja) plugin.

But tools evolve. HW (for consoles) does not, or is not supposed to.

Person A: pog, why did you change your party?
POG: Because I was offended by a ps3 fan on n4g!!

haha what a loser.