https://i.imgur.com/noTXoZ3...

pls nubs stop

I thought DF came to the conclusion that HW accelerated ready tracing was present in the PS5 demos.

First of all, both consoles use a custom GPU based on the RDNA 2 architecture. That means that their featureset will differ in certain areas from an off the shelf GPU. That has been explained in the PS5 deep dive and is not news worthy.

When it comes to machine learning, we already know that the Xbox Series X does not have tensor cores either. Instead it runs ML on it's shaders. The PS5 can do the exact same thing. Even if you run with the 'not true RDNA 2' narrative. RDNA 1 vector registers already had native support for parallel 8-bit and 4-bit integer math.

Hardware accelerated ray tracing has been confirmed over and over again. We've even seen it in action and you're still gonna claim that the PS5 does not have hardware accelerated RT?

I probably shouldn't be surprised considering you're linking tweets by blueisviolet, who has been propagating so much disinformation, it's astouding to me that he still has so many followers. He was a proponent of the 'hidden second GPU' hypothesis for the Xbox One back in the Misterxmedia days and he still jumps on nearly anything that props up Xbox and smears Playstation.

There is already enough misinformation floating around on the internet. We don't need to spread it on here too.

I linked you the 2nd wired article that states that ml is in the ps5 yesterday, yet you still trying to say it's not, why?

Also what do you think the geometry engine does in the ps5? You realise it's been patented by cerny himself? Everyone who was pointing to the geometry engine being an rdna1 thing was wrong, including that blue dude you like quoting. I'd say read up on it but you wont, that's obvious enough just by seeing you still say the ps5 has no ml.

Also ps5 has primitive shaders, which are the same thing as mesh shaders.

So there is ml,
There is a version of vrs
And there is a mesh shader too

its like you do no research at all.

But the chip does ray tracing, confirmed by Sony on multiple occasions. And even this dev days it does everything but one thing. Contacting what you say above.

So, if ML is required for this things then it does have ML.

^^^ my amazing phone skills

You've been actively commenting on other articles and editing this submission the whole day and yet you haven't responded to any of the criticisms aimed towards your initial comment by me or others. You've just come back to post an 'update' with even more misinformation about mesh shading and an assumption about VRS. Are you going to respond at all, or are you just interested in stirring the pot and disappearing?

"Machine Learning is vital for Ray Tracing"

No, it's not. Doesn't hurt given current tech though.

"Cerny said it was a "custom RDNA2"

MS is also using a custom RDNA2 chip. Both chips are custom.

"it looks that this "custom" approach is closer to the "Low End RDNA2"

It does? Do you even understand what a GPU architecture is or how they're classified, or what specs are actually needed to be classified as an RDNA chip? AMD and NVidia don't make that spec, ya know. It's a conglomerate of companies and standards groups and people much smarter than us that do that. If Cerny called it a RDNA2 chip, then it meets the requirements to be called one. There is no in between when it comes to standards. It can do more than the standard, but it has to have at least the minimum requirements to be called something. If there was a greater spec, then there would be a different version number.

"it's just that PS5 is missing features included in the "High End" RDNA 2 spec."

Yeah. XSX is also missing features from supposed "High End" RDNA2 specs, but there is no such thing as high end RDNA2 specs, just RDNA2 specs, and other features can be added or taken away based on the system makers(GPU or console makers) wants or needs. To use a completely made up example, a DX12 GPU that supports ray tracing, is still a DX12 card, because it has all the requirements to be classified as one. Doesn't matter if it also has other features, nor does it make cards that don't have ray tracing support not DX12.

" Missing HW accelerated Ray Tracing capabilities and AMD's DLSS for what I understand."

Sony has their own ray tracing solution, which is hardware accelerated. This has been stated by Sony, AMD, and confirmed by 3rd party groups. It is using a different implementation of RT, as opposed to MS solution.
Their chip isn't missing anything.

DLSS has been in use for quite some time without hardware. It's nothing new It was implemented on the PS3 in fact, was available on 360 when using the proper game engines, and is in both current consoles in some form or another. Sony has the same process built into their API's already. It also have variants in use in both DX and Vulcan. It just wasn't hardware accelerated in most cases, or on any console. I don't know if Sony has a hardware accelerated version in their system, but given the set up of their SSD system, I'm not sure it's actually necessary, and would be extremely limited in it's usefulness on a large scale.

It's quite simple really it's a custom base rdna2 with a lot of futures that are not on the Xbox rdna2 witch is also is custom both have different types of features to fit their vision.

Actually, as more information surfaces things get more confusing. Unless I'm missing something, there's no proof or demo available on PS5 making extensive use of Machine Learning (and this Engineer comments might be the reason), whereas on XSX the implementation of ML-Based HDR injected into any Xbox One game via backwards compatibility is a clear (and awesome) showcase of this technology on the console, which does have dedicated hardware to it:

"We knew that many inference algorithms need only 8-bit and 4-bit integer positions for weights and the math operations involving those weights comprise the bulk of the performance overhead for those algorithms," says Andrew Goossen. "So we added special hardware support for this specific scenario. The result is that Series X offers 49 TOPS for 8-bit integer operations and 97 TOPS for 4-bit integer operations. Note that the weights are integers, so those are TOPS and not TFLOPs. The net result is that Series X offers unparalleled intelligence for machine learning."

As for RT on PS5, I'm sure they have some kind of HW dedicated to it, otherwise, it would be nearly impossible to run those GT and R&C Demos on it.

What I was speculating is that it might have some trouble doing so as ML is a key component in RT acceleration, and being such a taxing feature, it'd be one less feature to "make shortcuts" in order to achieve it in real time.

Now I'd appreciate if you guys cool down and stop acting as if I was the guy to filtered this conversation on Twitter/NeoGaf.

Peace ✌️

So you make a load of baseless claims then act the victim?🤣👌

You worked your arse off to get this story approved 🤣

You can doubt the dev about ml all you like, that was from the second wired article, no way sony is letting that go to print with anything that's not true, that would include the ea devs quote.

The rt is hardware based, just like the xbox, like it, dont, but get over it man.

@Marquinho

The xbox is missing on one essential feature called:

"Talented Developers" - TD for short

Just to be clear I'm not shooting the messenger here. I have 0 problems with the way this article posted now. As a rumor rather than news, with the clarifying response linked instead of just the initial leaked dm discussion on neogaf. My comment is entirely focused on the misinformation you've posted in your comment and has very little to do with the article. Since you've replied I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt and try to clarify some issues:

The ML figures you've posted for the XSX let us know that the console doesn't have tensor cores and instead uses the standard shader cores for the job. A shader core can do eight 8-bit integer operations per clock and twice as many (sixteen) for 4-bit integer operations. If we do the calculation we get the figures you've posted, confirming that the operations run on shader cores rather than tensor cores.

INT8: 3328(shader cores) * 8 (operations / cycle) * 1825 (clock cycles / second) = 48588800 (Operations / second) = ~48.6 TOPS

For 4-bit integer it's the same calculation, but it's double the operations / cycle so you can simply multiply the 8-bit figure by 2. I won't go into the details for tensor core calculations, but the math is different and tensor cores are much more efficient at doing those operations (which makes sense of course, because they've been designed to do them).

Considering the consoles don't have Tensor cores and someone is asked whether they'll have something like DLSS it's much more understandable why someone would say they have no ML (meaning no dedicated ML hardware). I think that's the reason Rosario responded the way he did. That would be true for both consoles.

But how do we know whether the PS5 supports 8-bit and 4-bit integer operations? We don't, but it's very likely. Here's why:

The Dual compute architecture was built from the ground up to support all sorts of data types. AMD could've implemented INT8 and INT4 support in Navi 10 GPUs if they wanted, but since they have a fairly low amount of CUs at fairly low clocks the ML performance wouldn't have been great. Another reason to exclude it was that ML doesn't have much utility in gaming at the moment and those cards were strictly build for gaming. The consoles on the other hand are build for years to come and having some rudimentary ML capabilities makes much more sense in that context.

From the RDNA whitepaper:
"The new SIMDs were built for mixed-precision operation and efficiently compute with a variety of datatypes to enable scientific computing and machine learning."

"More importantly, the compute unit vector registers natively support packed data including two half-precision (16-bit) FP values, four 8-bit integers, or eight 4-bit integers."

"For even greater throughput, some ALUs will support 8-bit integer dot4 operations and 4-bit dot8 operations, all of which use 32-bit accumulators to avoid any overflows."

So it's very clear that ML capabilities have been on the menu for both MS and Sony even in the earlier planning stages. Of course Sony could've still decided against implementing it with PS5, but the evidence is pointing in the other direction.

Laura Miele on ML: https://www.wired.com/story...
Toshihiro Nagoshi: https://wccftech.com/playst...

(ran out of characters so just the links)

@Marquinho
You brave soul. Bless you for putting yourself at risk against the Sony Squad.

PS5 supports RT, it was shown in many of the showcase games, such as GT7.

What it MIGHT not support based on this news would be hardware support of a machine learning algorithm to apply AI noise reduction to the image generated by RT, so shadows and reflections might be a tad more grainy on PS5 if that were the case... unless the dev decided to dedicate come CPU or even the tempest engine towards that task, assuming Cerny saying the TE could be used for things other than 3D audio as well holds true.

Ray Tracing, especially real time, can lead to grainy results if you don't let it iterate enough times, which it can't always do when in real time, so AI noise reduction steps in and removes some of that grain for a cleaner looking image.

It's basically what I do when previewing a ray traced render in Cinema 4D. I do a quick, low-iteration Ray Trace of the animation, then pass it through state of the art noise reduction software to eliminated the grain from the image, which gives me a pretty good idea of what my high quality, high iteration render (that can take days per frame depending on how far I wanna push it) will look like in the end.

The reason I choose gaming on consoles is because I don't want that tech headache.. I buy a console for the games it offers, completely regardless of the tech.
I am still playing 3ds, I favor it to switch for the exact same reasons..

unless they have their own solutions, could be devastating.

Frosty the gpu can do machine learning man, this has been known since 2019...

"I could be really specific and talk about experimenting with ambient occlusion techniques, or the examination of ray-traced shadows," says Laura Miele, chief studio officer for EA. "More generally, we’re seeing the GPU be able to power machine learning for all sorts of really interesting advancements in the gameplay and other tools." 

https://www.wired.com/story...

That's not what he said. And Sony has confirmed HW accelerated ray tracing for the PS5.

I'm curious how a dev could make a demo showing off machine learning that would be tangible enough for the layman to see it in action. Machine learning isnt something that shows direct results, and only helps along other processes or functions which have more substantial hardware or software to implement the data that machine learning spots out.

I could make something that would calculate data and processing of data provided through machine learning, and its be readable to someone who understands what they're looking at. However, since it appears that the average person doesnt know what the differences are for half the terms I used in this post...and that's being generous...i doubt there would be anything that really represents what machine learning can do. On top of that, ML is only as beneficial as what its data sets allow the actual hardware or functions to do with that info.

Realizing that you don't understand this stuff with enough technical expertise would help you from making brash assumptions without the ability to back them up. Not to say some of the people refuting you are any better in this understanding, but for the most part, they're providing sources stating that your comment is just false, or at least you misinterpret things.

We actually don't know either if XSX is full RDNA 2.

It's all up in the air, to be honest. But, let's remember Cerny's remarks and what they are doing:

----------------------

On a features level, Cerny reveals features that suggest parity with other upcoming AMD and AMD-derived products based on the RDNA 2 technology. A new block known as the Geometry Engine offers developers unparalleled control over triangles and other primitives, and easy optimisation for geometry culling. Functionality extends to the creation of 'primitive shaders' which sounds very similar to the mesh shaders found in Nvidia Turing and upcoming RDNA 2 GPUs.

PlayStation 5's ray tracing support is in line with the implementations we've seen in the PC space.
While Cerny doesn't mention technologies such as machine learning support or variable rate shading, PS5 does indeed deliver hardware-accelerated ray tracing via its Intersection Engine, which Cerny says is "based on the same strategy as AMD's upcoming PC GPUs". There had been speculation of an external block, but that's not the case - like next-gen Navi and Xbox Series X, the RT hardware is built into the shaders and so fully integrated. Similar to the RDNA implementation, PS5 will have access to the same kind of RT implementations we've seen in the PC space - reflections, ambient occlusion, shadows and global illumination are a good fit.

"How far can we go? I'm starting to get quite bullish," says Cerny. "I've already seen a PS5 title that is successfully using ray-tracing-based reflections in complex animated scenes, with only modest costs."

-----------------------

I, honestly, don't know how the end result will work out on PS5. It's already a given the XSX will have better features. Both consoles should hit UHD quality textures, but how they will get the rest of stuff to work is to be seen. Less questionable on XSX by far as it's doing everything by the book. Sony, though, they're doing another PS3 it seems.

Personally, I'm not too invested in "the best" but "the games" but I definitely plan to get both within the first year of release and will determine from there which machine will be my permanent "third-party gaming machine." Currently, it's the XBO. Might be the XSX if the features on PS5 just don't add up.

Stop. Please. The misinformation is staggering.

https://www.google.com/amp/...

The Geometry Engine is built around VRS, which by virtue of design, mandates its presence.

Exactly, even series X is custom.
Do gamers actually think both Sony and MS were gonna use proper full spec RDNA 2 lol pmsl

@ Kribwalker Mesh/Primitive Shading seems to allow for both SIGNIFICANTLY higher geometric complexity as well as reduced CPU usage. They are both considered to be the same thing and used interchangeably. Xbox fan make up what ever they want and spin it as truth.

MS called their own console XSX is RDNA 2 custom, Sony their own PS5 custom RDNA 2. You can also see the same thing in Digital Foundry articles for both console where it says CUSTOM RDNA 2 for both. So, what's the problem?

Anyway, Leonardi later said this ( as it is mentioned in the article ) : ""RDNA 2 is a commercial theme to simplify the market, otherwise GPUs with completely random features would come out and it would be difficult for the average user to choose," wrote Leonardi.

"For example, support for ray tracing is not present in any AMD GPU currently on the market. (...) The PlayStation 5 GPU is unique, it cannot be classified as RDNA 1, 2, 3 or 4."

"It is based on RDNA 2, but it has more features and, it seems to me, one less. That message turned out badly, I was tired and I shouldn't have written the things I wrote", continued the engineer, complaining that he received insults for his statements."

So, BASED RDNA 2. It's custom RDNA 2. Sony helped AMD in developing Navi GPU ( RDNA 2 in that regard ). Also, if is RDNA, PS5 GPU wouldn't hit clock speed over 2 GHz, but RDNA 2 can because 50% efficiency. Also, Ray Tracing is only in RDNA 2.

https://www.wired.com/story...

"I could be really specific and talk about experimenting with ambient occlusion techniques, or the examination of ray-traced shadows," says Laura Miele, chief studio officer for EA. "More generally, we’re seeing the GPU be able to power MACHINE LEARNING for all sorts of really interesting advancements in the gameplay and other tools."

"From Leonardi himself: 'It is based on RDNA 2, but it has more features and, it seems to me, ONE LESS.'"

Seems. That's speculative, not factual.

He obviously made a stupid message engaging with fanboys.
I think RDNA 2 is the architecture. It doesnt matter what features Sony and Ms pick and choose or ADD their own features. Both are OFFICIALLY BASED on RDNA2. Not called 'FULL' rdna2 which doesnt make sense for a custom console.
There is no such a thing as RDNA 1.5

I'm seeing a pattern with your posts, lad.

It seems you're putting in a lot of free hours before 23 July.

And here you are again.

"It is based on RDNA 2, but it has more features and, it seems to me, one less. That message turned out badly, I was tired and I shouldn't have written the things I wrote",

His words not yours.

LOL...I mean yeah...he was so tired, he just got lost in his own thoughts and misplaced his logic temporarily...makes perfect sense to me. Or maybe he got a call the next morning from the higher ups telling him to shut up or find another job...

"LOL...I mean yeah...he was so tired, he just got lost in his own thoughts and misplaced his logic temporarily...makes perfect sense to me. Or maybe he got a call the next morning from the higher ups telling him to shut up or find another job..."

LOL. . . people really pick and choose what they want to believe and WHO they want to believe. Bet if this was the reverse (praising the PS5 as being better than SX and later retracted his statement) you wouldn't be saying that. . . oh wait

I mean...youre free to believe all ya like that these very intelligent individuals that are suppose to know these boxes in and out just somehow forgot that it wasnt full RDNA 2...then later somehow remembered that it was. I know which one sounds more logical to me. He told the truth from the rip, then tried his best to clean it up once others got to him about how it would be perceived.

"I know which one sounds more logical to me. He told the truth from the rip, then tried his best to clean it up once others got to him about how it would be perceived."

Right. . . just like that crytec dev. . .

I have to disagree with you there...the Crytec dev wasn't an official engineer of the PS5 hardware...this guy is. He would actually KNOW something like that...where as the Crytec dev could have been going off more of what he heard but didnt have first hand experience like this guy does.

Cerny would KNOW, AMD would KNOW too, but you seem to ignore that. . . probably think they're lying like you think Sweeny is. . .

"where as the Crytec dev could have been "

"could have been" So you don't KNOW. It's still a possibility that the higher ups yanked him just as you ASSUME here. Difference is one favors the one you prefer over the other. . .