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Xbox Series X’s Sampler Feedback Streaming Is “An Absolute Game-Changer,” Says Developer

Team Blur Games’ design lead Gavin Stevens explains how the Xbox Series X’s Sampler Feedback Streaming will allow it to keep up with the PS5’s SSD.

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gamingbolt.com
Daniel21832135d ago

Series X is a monster . Can’t wait to see what they show off next week .

Marquinho2135d ago

So much praise to the Series X.

Jason Ronald is a damn genius.

Cmv382135d ago

Maybe we should treat this praise like you all did with the Sony praise and just deny its validity.

Chris122135d ago

@cmv38 - but Sony paid for theirs

ForwardDude2134d ago

@Chris12 Says who? Phil Spencer in an interview? If a judge ask you, what would be your answer?

lalalala2134d ago

Definitely a great feature if it works as well as described. I'd be interested to see it in practice though, then we can see the difference between the 2 consoles. Also, I doubt Sony will just rollover, they probably have something similar in the works.

bouzebbal2134d ago

Lol long time we didn't get an article from Scorn dev, huh gamingbolt?

+ Show (3) more repliesLast reply 2134d ago
2134d ago
IRetrouk2135d ago (Edited 2135d ago )

Didnt cerny show this at the ps5 tech talk?, loading only what is needed? How is that an advantage or something that can be used to "keep up" with the ps5s ssd if it can also do be same thing?

How does this negate the speed of the ps5s ssd or io setup? The ps5 has a faster ssd and io system than microsofts, and can also do what's being talked about, I dont understand how that allows the xbox system to "keep up" with the ps5s speed advantage?, whether that's ssd speed, io speed or a combination of the two.

Another problem I found with this article is this statement

"Stevens adds that the PS5’s SSD is undoubtedly faster than the Xbox Series X’s, but states that while Sony focused entirely on their SSD, Microsoft have divvied their attention across several solution, such as Sampler Feedback Streaming, which in particular, in Stevens’ words, “levels the playing field somewhat.”"

We know that this isnt true, cerny talked about a lot of bottlenecks to do with much more than just the ssd that he solved, the whole io setup, memory management and everything in between was designed to get rid of bottlenecks....this is a puff piece in the truest form.

I_am_Batman2135d ago

SFS is specifically about recording texture sampling information and location, then only streaming the required mipmaps or even only parts of them. This allows for for a much more efficient use of the available I/O bandwidth and memory. Sampler Feedback is an RDNA 2 feature and although SFS is a DX12 Ultimate implementation of that feature, there is in theory no reason why Sony couldn't have their own implementation in GNM.

And no, this does not increase the I/O throughput of the Series X, it only makes better use of the available throughput and memory. Using the 2.5x efficiency boost and applying it on the I/O throughput post decompression is a very sloppy and inaccurate way of talking about the benefits of SFS. It's like saying the Xbox Series X now has 40GB of RAM, because it doesn't waste as much memory on unneeded mipmaps.

Taking a fictitious figure like that and comparing it to a real one on the other side is comparing apples to oranges, especially when tiled resources and partially resident textures have been a thing throughout the current generation already. Of course SFS is a much more efficient way of solving the same problem, but we can't get an accurate representation of real world performance without knowing all the variables.

crazyCoconuts2135d ago

Where is SFS implemented? Inside DX?

olafu2135d ago (Edited 2135d ago )

How convenient it is that this new information just happened to be revealed only after it came to light that PS5's SSD was 2.5 times faster than the SSD in the SX and how convenient for them that this magical tech is going to some how be exactly the difference between the actual hardware benefit of PS5's SSD.

It's so convenient it's like it was made up.

Sitdown2135d ago

@olafu
Huh, you do know we are still learning information about these consoles right? Given that they are still months from release. What some of you all fail to realize if that a Porsche is way faster than an entry level Hyundai, but how often do you get to take advantage of it in a residential neighborhood. But even before all that, who really cares, it won't be long before what's on paper has to manifest itself in games, and then nobody will be able to give from real world results.

Kados2135d ago (Edited 2135d ago )

@olafu:

SFS was detailed in MS's original briefing in March, prior to Sony releasing the details on the PS5. Calling something "magical" just because you fail to understand it, is incredibly ignorant.

https://www.youtube.com/wat... Starting @ 8:15, it goes into details on SFS.
https://www.youtube.com/wat...

rainslacker2135d ago

Techniques like this have been available for quite some time really. Even the PS3 had a rudimentary version of this within their API's, and the CELL was quite efficient at doing this kind of thing. Only difference is that this is embedded into hardware now, so it requires less work by the developer, and hardware calls should be faster.

It won't make up the SSD speed deficiency anymore than MS compression engine would, especially considering that Sony also has a compression engine and compression is never a reliable factor for throughput anyways, and while it will allow more data through in the I/O throughput, Sony also is ahead of MS in that as well, and SFS won't make up that speed difference. It still doesn't speed anything up though. Data can only travel as fast as the bus allows it.

I_am_Batman2135d ago (Edited 2135d ago )

@CrazyCoconuts: SFS is the DX12 ultimate implementation. It takes the feedback maps from the hardware layer and provides the information back into the software layer, which allows for a more accurate prediction on what texture data will be needed next.

@rainslacker: Even the current gen console GPUs already had built-in features that helped with some aspects of virtual texturing. As far as I understand it, this is simply gonna make it much more precise and reliable. It would be interesting to see how much of an actual efficiency boost this will bring compared to current methods without SFS.

Zeref2135d ago (Edited 2135d ago )

@rainslacker

OMG, you just reminded why I don't go to these comment sections. SFS is most definitely something completely new. It has never been done before at all. Stop talking about shit you know nothing about. Goddamn I lose brain cells everytime i come here.

And yes it REALLY DOES close the gap and surpasses PS5 SSD if used by developers(which it most likely will be because its part of DX12 Ultimate) and on top of that its sustained speeds. And not theoretical peak speeds like Cerny talks about.

Unfortunately for you playstation fanboys this isn't smoke and mirrors. Like Cerny likes to do. I know yall hate the fact that the one thing yall were clinging onto is now gone with the wind but its just the reality.

IRetrouk2135d ago (Edited 2134d ago )

Zeref you are wrong.

Listen from the 10 minute mark, understand what's being said, realise you are wrong.

https://youtu.be/ph8LyNIT9s...

+ Show (5) more repliesLast reply 2135d ago
Minute Man 7212135d ago

The Series has a bigger bus than the PS5

Zeref2135d ago

Arm chair devs at it again. Sony thus far has not showed ANYTHING thats comparable to SFS.

It loads specific mip maps only when needed. PS5 does not do that.

Using that the SSD speeds is effectively 12GB/s. The raw performance is still 4.8GB. But effectively it's 12GB/s due to its efficiency.

Sony could come up with its own method but thus far they haven't shown it. Just like they haven't shown Mesh shading/VRS and ML.

Also was recently confirmed by a high level engineer that PS5 is RDNA1 with some RDNA2 features. It's (rightfully so) marketed as RDNA2 as to not make PS5 look worse.

Due to this fact, i dont think PS5 is capable of SFS. Since it's an RDNA2 feature.

russo1212135d ago (Edited 2135d ago )

Interesting Ps5 is driving you crazy. How can that be? Get out of your harm chair, take a deep breath and relax. Only by your posts in this thread you're trying too much for too little. You're not convincing anyone with your arguments.

IRetrouk2134d ago (Edited 2134d ago )

The rdna1 rumors are flat out false, both amd and sony have both stated rdna 2 multiple times, including on both companies websites, plus the dm hasnt been proved legit at all...why you are holding onto false rumors is anyone's guess.

Nothing similar on ps5? You sure?
Mark cerny discussed this on stage, it's at the 10 minute mark

https://youtu.be/ph8LyNIT9s...

Loading only what's needed in the players view.......

As for your 12gbs figure, it's made up bull, nowhere has microsoft stated this, they said its 40 times faster at its raw speed of 2.4 than xbox one s and thanks to compression and efficiency 100 times faster with its compression speed of 4.8..... that's also where their 2.5 times number comes from(raw vs compressed) you don't seem to know what you are talking about.

sinspirit2134d ago

Zeref:

"And not theoretical peak speeds like Cerny talks about."

So, you certainly wouldn't take XBox's theoretical SSD speed and multiply it with a theoretical enhancement..right?

"Using that the SSD speeds is effectively 12GB/s. The raw performance is still 4.8GB. But effectively it's 12GB/s due to its efficiency."

Oh, no. You did take its theoretorical performance that directly reflects the 2.5x SFS number they are talking about. They already mentioned the max data transfer rate compressed. This 2.5x number is already reflective of the console tech. It's not a new addition to multiply the existing number by. Btw, it's not exclusive to XBox or DX. The SFS name may be but not the method of implementation. Textures are a heavy focus for compression because of their size and games demand for them. XBox has a solution that prioritizes it. But, PS5 has simply better everything to transfer compressed and uncompressed data. Textures included. XBox does not have any advantage here at all. What is with people that have to hear a fancy name or term to understand something exists. These aren't new, you have no idea what you're taking about, and you're literally making it up as you go and relying on faked info for BS claimed to perpetuate a childish agenda.

Zeref2134d ago (Edited 2134d ago )

12GB/s is not theoretical that's actual practical performance.

jukins2134d ago

FULL RDNA2 has been cpnfirmed for both consoles.each with further customizations. The fact that you have the wrong kinda navies anything you're trying so hard to prove lol. Funny how ps5 is theoretical but series x is all the sudden guranteed to run at 12gb a sec 2x the speed of ps5s ssd which almost every dev has praised even AFTER the series x was revealed full teardown and all.

sinspirit2134d ago

Here's the thing, Zeref. Practical and under ideal situations is completely different. SFS requires devs taking advantage of it. SFS also falls under the restrictions of the SSD AND the system throughput. You are taking the compressed speed and multiplying it with the 2.5x number. You don't double compress this data. You compress the drives uncompressed data. You have no way of achieving 12GB of texture data like you made up. You don't understand the material.

In this article as well, it says, "levels the playing field somewhat.”. It doesn't catch up. It just closes the distance somewhat. It doesn't exceed the PS5 SSD at all. The PS5 has advanced compression for ALL data types. Texture compression is built into RDNA2 by the way. SFS is just MS' API brandname method to use this architecture feature. If you really think that the entire data transfer is all textures, that devs will take full advantage to achieve the max effective level of use, and that you can multiply compressed data transfer rate with the SFS max compression ratio to get your 12GB/s number.. Then you haven't any interest in understanding hardware or console specs aside from trying to find a way to suit your agenda and bias. And, you were way too antsy to absorb the info properly just to feel like you could hold one over on a plastic box.

FyBy2134d ago

Maybe Sony doesnt call it VRS and SFS but instead they have same solution, which they built up with AMD. For example this Sony patent seems like VRS alternative (different shader use and setup for different zones):
https://redirect.viglink.co...

+ Show (4) more repliesLast reply 2134d ago
Neonridr2135d ago

why can't this just be something good for the MS system. Sony has their own thing. Everything doesn't always have to be dissected.

IRetrouk2134d ago

It is good, and you are right, but the dev of the article make statements that just aren't true, and also is the one who invited the comparisons, I'm not sure my response wasnt warranted.

crazyCoconuts2134d ago

Exactly, retro. If the article was just saying "here's some neat tech in DX12 that Xbox can use, that's fine. But to say that this will close the gap in the IO speed while repeating how damn fine the XSX is just makes it clear it's written to manipulate people.

chiefJohn1172134d ago

Lol you showed up quick asf like superman trying to save the day 😆

frostypants2134d ago

Of course it's a puff piece. It's FailingBolt. It's all they do.

dcbronco2134d ago

The problem here is people are comparing the Unreal demo to what SX is doing. The Ureal demo uses uncompressed data and the PS5 has an advantage there. But SX can do the same thing but through compression and ML to get the same effects. The SX was designed with these tricks in mind while the PS5 was designed to be uncompressed. Ultimately the SX version might have some advantages while the PS5 will have some. But I don't think either will have a SSD advantage. They'll just be different.

FyBy2134d ago

It doesnt matter. Ps5 uses oodle + Kraken compression for textures. So ps5 still much faster in texture loading.

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EasilyTheBest2135d ago

What happened to the stories about the PS5 not using RDNA 2. They are using an improved version of RDNA 1.
Both stories vanished off this site in no time..

IRetrouk2135d ago

Because they couldn't confirm the dm was legit

Wulfer2135d ago (Edited 2135d ago )

I've read about the PS5 RDNA 1 / 2 but, can't remember where I read that.

IRetrouk2135d ago (Edited 2135d ago )

🤔 what's that got to do with this article? I'll help you, nothing 🤣

I will entertain you though,
Cerny has said that they have built a system that doesnt need to run at full power all the time, the option is absolutely there if that's how devs want to code, but it's not how the ps5 is designed to work, that interview from that tweet confirms this more than anything, Not hard to understand, and typically blown out of proportion/misunderstood by fanboys🤷‍♂️

You can completely change your comment all you like, I seen and answered it before you did the edit🤷‍♂️🤦‍♂️
You read it everywhere apart from the official ps5 specs and amds own advertisments...

mrsolidsteel202135d ago

@EasilyTheBest

You, Echo, and TimoTim kill me with your logic sometimes. You guys get bent out of shape when false information is posted about the Series X, but at the same time what to praise articles when they’re spreading false information about the PS5.

I thought this whole thing with the PS5 still using RDNA 1 was debunked when Mark Cerny stated at the PS5 reveal event that they was using a custom RDNA 2 chip, just like the Series X.

And yet you guys are still going against with Mark said.

If you don’t believe me, for example, TimoTim went “full retard” yesterday because an article was taken down because a low level developer was saying how much more powerful the Series X is compared to the PS5 and that he was trying to help the fans of the PS5 keep their expectations in check when comes to PS5, but don’t when it comes to the Series X?

I stopped reading because it was just sad and ridiculously stupid how he was acting over a piece of plastic that he doesn’t even own yet.

chiefJohn1172134d ago

"Mark Cerny said" that's getting old

badz1492134d ago

@chiefJohn117

so does the PCIe Gen3 speed the SX is using

Marquinho2135d ago

It will surface sooner or later if true. If PS5 doesn't support Machine Learning, it will show. Machine learning is key for Ray Tracing and the AMD equivalent for DLSS. It's a big game changer.

IRetrouk2135d ago (Edited 2135d ago )

It's been known from the october 2019 wired exclusive interview that machine learning would be present, it was from an EA's chief studio officer,

"I could be really specific and talk about experimenting with ambient occlusion techniques, or the examination of ray-traced shadows," says Laura Miele, chief studio officer for EA. "More generally, we’re seeing the GPU be able to power machine learning for all sorts of really interesting advancements in the gameplay and other tools." 

https://www.wired.com/story...

It was also reported on by various other websites, and patents pertaining to ai and machine learning by sony also found, but for some reason people insist it's not there. Do a search for it yourself, you'll see.

zeuanimals2135d ago

@IRetrouk: It's funny. MS names a bunch of things that Sony's already doing but haven't named. And then people grab onto the name and think Sony don't have anything that could match. I've seen like 4 instances of this

IRetrouk2135d ago

It's crazy the amount of downplay thats been done, for no reason too, we know the xbox is more powerful, I dont get why they have to try and widen the gap with false info, it screams insecurity, and theres no need for it lol.

Marquinho2135d ago (Edited 2135d ago )

Last minute RDNA2-ish? PS5 doing a PS3? Not my words:

https://twitter.com/Colteas...

Also, Cerny's "Custom RDNA 2" would be a very convenient wording if this ends up being true:

https://www.eurogamer.net/a...

IRetrouk2135d ago

More crap spread by fanboys, not only have sony stated rdna 2 so has amd, it's not true.

russo1212135d ago (Edited 2135d ago )

In your head anything that comes to xsx are a game changer. Just get ready for deception.

ShadowWolf7122134d ago

...dude, BOTH systems are custom RDNA 2. They're bot custom chips using it as a base.

Key word: BASE. Not just taping on features. It's the FOUNDATION.

Just stop. And stop treating freaking Colt Eastwood as a legitimate source.

+ Show (4) more repliesLast reply 2134d ago
Games1st2135d ago

AMD’s EVP Computing and Graphics, Rick Bergman said, “We’re on the cusp of the next generation. The next generation consoles will use our latest Zen technology, will use our latest RDNA technology as well, really creating this immersive experience with raytracing, 3D audio, fast load times to really excite a new generation of games.”

RazzerRedux2135d ago (Edited 2135d ago )

The tweets this was supposedly based on doesn't exist. No record of a deleted tweet either.

We already know PS5 is RDNA 2. AMD said it flatly.

"RDNA 2 architecture is the foundation for next-generation PC gaming graphics, the highly anticipated PlayStation 5 and Xbox Series X consoles."
https://www.amd.com/en/tech...

russo1212135d ago

Trying to explain to these hardcore fanboys is no easy task and it's a lost of time presenting facts they'll never acknowledge, even if it comes from Sony, AMD or whatever. They're salty and angry towards Sony, maybe because it's where the games are, the masterpieces they can only dream of.

RazzerRedux2134d ago (Edited 2134d ago )

@russo121

You would think that teraflops advantage would be enough. So insecure.

rainslacker2135d ago

Maybe N4G is applying a truth filter like facebook and twitter are doing, and not allowing articles which have blatently false information in them....even if they're written as a curious concern type blog?

Cerny has already confirmed it's using an RDNA2 processor. Who cares where the article went. It was false and there's no reason to confuse people even more when most obviously have no clue what any of it means anyways.

2134d ago
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majiebeast2135d ago

Gavin Stevens is a nobody that makes up fake tweets to slander the PS5.

sho0ok3602135d ago

He was praising the PS5 ssd in almost every tweet of that thread, and said better than Xbox's.

He just saying Xbox is closing the Gap through software techs.

Btw this is his own account, so how is it fake?

Dunno why you so butthurt.

Mulando2135d ago

Well not just software, because you need the hardware implementation to use this kind of streaming, for the transition between the mips and tells the software when a which mip must be loaded.

sho0ok3602135d ago

@Mulando yes that's true too... But the point is MS will have some tricks to close the gap.

SlothLordPootus2134d ago

The only thing I found interesting that could refute his claims about "the PS5 does not do this", is in the comments he was asking a self proclaimed Sony engineer if there would be hardware or software support for similar features. So likely he has an Xbox dev kit and is working on an exclusive indie game and doesn't have a PS5 dev kit. Obviously I have no idea if thats true, but that's just what I read and inferred.

crazyCoconuts2135d ago

Reading through the tweets, the decision to load all the texture maps of an asset is made by the game engine, not some low level driver or hardware. So I'd think this technique could be employed by any developer/game engine, and if employed by another have engine or third party developer, should work on the PS5 as well. This conceptually seems really basic to me, something that UE and others would have either done or would be able to mimic in their own implantations rather quickly.

rainslacker2135d ago (Edited 2135d ago )

True, it doesn't make sense to just pull part of the texture file from storage when needed, as it'd be much faster to just load the entire texture....especially since chances are, you are going to need those texture again on the next frame, and it's going to use a different part of the texture, or at least have to go through the process of determining what it needs each time.

Things like this already exist. At the very core of a GPU, it takes only the part of the texture it needs to render the object anyways, and streaming that for every frame would probably take more overall bandwidth than it'd save.

This technique may, and would be useful, for quick loading an object's textures while you're also loading in the entire texture for the next frame. Particularly with bigger more complex textures. To be efficient though, it would mean doing this on object creation, and not on the draw part of the render. That's more operational though, and not worth getting into detail. It's probably also not worth doing this on all objects. The overhead involved would take longer to process than it would just transferring in all the assets. The majority of textures used within a game really aren't that big, even with the so called, "4K Textures", which isn't actually a thing.

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