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Xenoblade Chronicles 2 needs to borrow the Gambit system

Xenoblade Chronicles 2 is on the way, and it has high hopes to live up to in terms of story and world building, but there’s one area in particular James want to focus on today: Combat. James has always lauded the greatness of Xenoblade’s combat, both in the original and Xenoblade Chronicles X, which has the best combat system to ever grace an RPG. It avoids the boredom inherent to the turn based combat systems of traditional JRPGs, and cuts down on the stiff, janky combat that saturates Action-RPGs. Combat in Xenoblade Chronicles X feels like the proper evolution of Final Fantasy XII’s Active Dimension Battle system, but it’s missing one vital piece that’s holding it back from perfection: Gambits.

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csgmagazine.com
PhoenixUp3276d ago

The Xenoblade franchise's combat always played very similar to FFXII

BlahBlahWhatever3275d ago

NO FUCKING WAY! I hate FFXII & the main reason was this auto-pilot retarded battle system it have that was made for brain-dead people, in the one & only time I finish it I didn't fight against the last boss I just watch as my party kill him, it was the ultimate face-palm ever.. keep that disgusting shit away from the Xeno series.

Princess_Pilfer3275d ago (Edited 3275d ago )

1: You don't have to use it. You can micromanage everything if you want.

2: It doesn't necessarily need to be applied to the main character (IE they could still make you physically control at least one character without AI)

3: Even if you do use it, it's not "for brain dead people." Even if you did just sit there are watch as your team does everything because you set up the AI well, it still means you have to undersand the mechanics of the game and the dynamics of your current party as well as things like targeting priority in various group compositions and the like, exactly the same as if you micro managed everything. The only difference is that you apply this understanding in advance by setting up the AI instead of mid battle while micro managing. It requires all the same mental skills and Xenoblade isn't a game that demands physical skill to begin with, so it's definitely not brain dead.

In fact it might actually take more skill to get through without touching the controller, because the AI isn't going to improvise if things go wrong in the way a person could, so there is less room for error while setting up the AI.

Princess_Pilfer3275d ago (Edited 3275d ago )

I got as far as "inherent bordom of turnbased systems" before I decided the authors opinion isn't worth considering.(I'm only half joking.)

That asside, people do know FF12 wasn't the first and isn't the only game with that kind of system right?

Also, one of the pillars of their argument is false. Even with an ai scripting system, the programmers *still* have to make AI that accounts for everything because otherwise they can't provide the player with the option to enable/disable the various responses, so it's not decreasing the burden on programmers at all. It might actually be increasing the burden on the programmers. What it's doing is moving the responsibility of making sure the AI acts appropriately from the developers to the player

PlebeGamer3275d ago

Boredom is a large part of turn based systems though, because the fodder battles devolve into repeating the same exact actions for long periods of time, with little to no variance. Grinding is often a necessary part of the game on the first play through, and grind has become synonymous with boring.

And no the developers don't have to do anything to the AI. The gambit system is just a bunch of "if, then" lines of code. All the developers have to do is provide a list of variables and call it a day, which is far and away easier than programming an AI. The hardest part of making AI is making sure it works properly, and as you said the gambit system puts that on the player, not the developer. Which is smart, because a player will only encounter so many situations at once, and it's a lot easier to edit a few Gambits on the fly than it is to account for every possible situation at the outset.

Princess_Pilfer3275d ago

No, it's not, especially if the encounters and combat are well designed. It's exactly the same as in action games, poor encounter design leades to frequent repetition and spamming of strategy X, good encounter design doesn't. Persona 5 and Shadowrun Returns and Divinity: Original Sin and Shadow Hearts: From the new world all have very different turn based battle systems and are all very good at encounter design and avoiding excessive repetition, meanwhile Tales of Berseria is fairly bad at encounter design so the actual depth in the combat system is wasted because you can steamroll almost all the fights with the exact same strategy (time 1 dodge, spam x till out of SP, activate devil arm thing, spam X until special move, re-activate devil arm thing, repeat.)

That's most of what the AI was in the first place. Video game AI (as far as combat preformance) really has little need to go much beyond that.

You don't need to account for every situation, you need a good baseline set of actions and responses for general combat (ie is sufficient for 70 or 80% of the time,) and then you balance the game in such a way as to allow player input to make up for the AI in places where it isn't coping well. That's the strategy Xenoblade used, and is literally the entire point of the chain system. It resets cooldowns specifically to prevent their AI routines interfering with the players needs in the situations where the player actually needs them to do something specific.

I don't know how much experience you have with systems like the gambit system, but in FF12 it's quite easy to set up gambits that will work just fine 70% of the time. Even in the much more complicated Dragon Age Origins it's not a particularly difficult task. Most of it is just targeting priority, evading/blocking dangerous AOEs and using the core skills for the class (taunt foe targeting healer, for example.)

PlebeGamer3275d ago (Edited 3275d ago )

I guess it would help to define what I mean by inherently fun/boring: If you can design an entire game around that aspect, it's inherently fun. How long could you play a game that booted up into a turn based battle against an endless stream of opponents with no context? I'd imagine most people would grow bored quite quickly. However there are games where booting up and going straight to combat is almost the entire concept: Fighters, Shooters, Character Action, etc.

Traditional Turn Based systems are inherently boring to the majority of gamers, because it's literally picking commands from a window, no different than a vending machine at the most basic level. That's not to say turn based combat can't be great, it's just that designing around that weakness to cover it up is what makes games like Persona 5 so great.

Persona 5 has a lot of interactivity in its combat menu compared to say Bravely Default. On top of that, new mechanics are steadily being added through social links, frequently changing the formula in little ways, all while your senses are bombarded with weaponized coolness. Persona 5 also goes out of its way to create content outside of battle, because if you do long stretches of battle in the game, you will get repetition fatigue. Those well crafted side adventures, in Persona 5, are excellent palette cleansers, and the fact they can also add to the combat is a stroke of freaking genius.

Also I'm well aware AI that works in 70-80% of the the situations available is perfectly acceptable, but I was illustrating that gambits are better because they can far more easily account for 100% of the situations players will come across in any given time due to their simple nature and the ease with which they can be changed. This extra control and reliability also increases the ceiling for encounters in terms of complexity and difficulty as well.

Princess_Pilfer3274d ago

"I'd imagine" isn't an argument, and raw consensus (even if you did have it, which there is no evidence of) doesn't make anything inherently fun or not fun. That's not what the word inherently means.

In reality it depends entirely on the game and the person. For one, if it was an action game with that kind of setup I wouldn't play it for very long at all because without context it's gonna stop being entertaining relatively quickly. For 2 you're aware that MTG and Hearthstone are 2 of the most popular games in the world? You know games like Pokemon continue to sell 30 million units with every release despite the combat having been almost exactly the same in every single game?

Yeah, you're just describing a good difficulty curve. If an action game gives you all the tools right off the bat and never introduces anything new or gives players a break from the combat to do other things, it'll get boring and repetitive for a lot of people. That has nothing to do with the game being turnbased or action. That's why even non-stop action games where the story doesn't matter still tend to have stories. A little context and even small breaks from the combat goes a very long way to keeping players engaged.

You're moving the goalposts is what you're doing. I never claimed more typical companion AI isn't inferior to a well done gambit system in terms of functionality, I claimed that implementing gambits in no way reduced the work necessary for the programmers. Like 10 short, basic if-then strings will get you through most content even in complex games like Dragon Age Orgins, and there is no need for AI more complex than that if the game is properly balanced, which is the approach basically everyone takes in games like this. In fact it actually increases work, because for such a system to work proprely they have to give the player more options than they would need to implement themselves with a different system.

PlebeGamer3273d ago

Magic the Gathering and Pokemon TCG have the same turn based aspect, but there's a huge difference in variability between playing an opponent in a TCG and mindlessly shitstomping a ton of small opponents by holding X. The very nature of card games allows for such variability, and turn based video games shouldn't try to match it because it would be poor game design. Plus, you don't have to grind to improve your deck, assuming you have the cards, they can go in at will.

Tell me all about the rich story of DMC's Bloody Palace, where people spend most of their time. Or how about the dense lore of Infinite Warfare's multiplayer mode? Story is not needed for these games to be fun for their audience, the same cannot be said for a turn based JRPG.

Copying and pasting a bunch of variables into the gambit template is literally easier than making 10 good if;then statements. The extra flexibility afforded by the gambits could lead to battles that require more specialization instead of the piss easy face rolls we currently have in games with AI party members.

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50°

Ranking the Xenoblade Chronicles games, from best to worst

NE: "Today, we're taking on the difficult task of ranking every single game in the Xenoblade Chronicles series from best to least best."

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nintendoeverything.com
repsahj106d ago

For me, Xenoblade 2 and 3 and Final Fantasy 7 remake and rebirth are the best JRPGs or RPGs in general ever made. Yes, they even surpassed Expedition 33 in my honest opinion. Before, the Tales series was among my favorites, but I was very disappointed with their last game, Tales of Arise. Its world has become linear and not as expansive as their previous games. Fortunately, its battle gameplay is still very good. I hope that in the next Tales game, they will expand the game even more.

Hoping for a new Xenoblade game from Monolith Soft in this year's Nintendo General Direct. And it should be a Switch 2 exclusive.

Sircolby45105d ago

Yeah, Xenoblade 2 and 3 are amazing. I would have put Xenoblade 2 in first and 3 in second if I was ranking them.

Zeldafan64105d ago (Edited 105d ago )

The "worst" Xenoblade game is still better than 95% of games out there. Xenoblade 2 is my favorite rpg ever. All the Xenoblade games have incredible characters, soundtracks, voice acting, stories, world design and combat (save for Xenoblade 1 whose combat, while good, is not incredible).

70°

Why all four Xenoblade Chronicles games need Nintendo Switch 2 Editions

NE: "We look at each Xenoblade Chronicles game's performance on Nintendo Switch and how each one would be impacted by a Switch 2 Edition or patch."

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nintendoeverything.com
Vits177d ago

What makes it even sadder is that if you jailbreak your Switch 1, it actually runs those games better than the Switch 2. Since you can, on the fly, change the rendering resolution and overclock the device to handle it.

I’m currently playing Xenoblade X like that and it’s great, no FPS drops, and even in handheld mode, the game looks very clear. Though, I have to say, I’m still a bit divided on whether I like or dislike the changes they made from the Wii U version. On one hand, everything looks cleaner and the models feel more alive, but on the other hand, it looks less unique.

Zeldafan64176d ago (Edited 176d ago )

Saying X looks less unique is not something I ever expected to read. I think the character models look quite a bit better in the Switch version (not that I thought they looked bad in the Wii U version). The world and monster design are some of the best I've ever seen in video games though I'll still give a slight edge to Xenoblade 2's world design. Leftherian Archipelago is my favorite location in any video game from a visual standpoint followed closely by endgame of Xenoblade 1.

Vits175d ago

If you think the Switch version models look unique, I have dozens of anime titles to sell to you.

Zeldafan64173d ago

I was talking about the world and monster design being unique, not the character models. Guess I should have made that clearer.

100°

Monolith Soft May Be Hinting At Xenoblade 2 Remaster For Switch 2, Visual Comparison Inside

Monolith Soft may be hinting at a remaster of its action role-playing game, Xenoblade Chronicles 2, for the Nintendo Switch 2.

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twistedvoxel.com
Goodguy01266d ago

They should update these games for the switch 2 hardware, might as well as we wait for the next new xenoblade game.

repsahj265d ago

I hope this is a free update for switch 2. Specially XCX.

jznrpg265d ago

2 was the game I liked the least but it was still pretty good

Zeldafan64264d ago

2 is my favorite in the series even though it's the one I have the most issues with.

Duke19264d ago (Edited 264d ago )

So outside of a side by side comparison you would never notice a difference between the original title and the remaster?

It’s depressing how many people want to keep buying the SAME GAME on a new platform.

Zeldafan64264d ago

The Xenoblade games deserve way higher sales numbers than they get.

peppeaccardo264d ago (Edited 264d ago )

Switch 2 = Replay Station