Brad Wardell on how Vulkan can probably make easier for developers to make games on PS4.
High end PC game developers will be setting their memory requirements higher in the future due to Scorpio.
Mediocre? Lmao
Edit: CPU, nevermind. Indeed Jaguar is mediocre, next gen we need some badass CPUs on Consoles.
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Like the article states DX12 takes the burden off the CPU. Also, what about the comand chip between the GPU and CPU, that as well should also take the stress of the CPU. So, before making any judgement, lets wait til E3 so that we all can see how these new tech ideas work.
Not many games use directx12 and DX12 was already hardcoded to the x1. So we know that its effect isnt as powerfull as it originally seemed
@zivtheawesome
You can't compare the two(X1/scorpio), both systems are different in thier approch hardware wise. The x1 doesn't have a command chip between it CPU/GPU. I guessing MS finally realized, after many test run, they need a command chip to make DX12 work more efficiently.
MS said during the tech interviews about the XB1 HW that they modified the command processors. MS also said after the Scorpio reveal that the Scorpio had the same DX12 HW as XB1. Scorpio has many other modifications besides the embedded DX12, but it at least shares that part of it's architecture with the OG console.
Matter of fact, Brad also said that DX12 was going to have a significant impact on XB1 performance way back when. That was the last thing he said before MS put the clamps on him, then Spencer said that DX12 will make XB1 better at what it was designed to do. I guess now we also know Brad wasn't lying, because now he's saying that his core neutral engine is going to exploit the DX12 HW in the XB1's, just like he was saying before MS shut him up. This is likely due to the fact that MS knew how long it would be before engines could be developed that fully exploit all of the innovations MS made to the XB1. Spencer also told the truth, because the XB1 was designed to take advantage of core neutral engines offloading draw calls to the command processor.
Turn 10 essentially confirms all of this too by saying that taking advantage of coding for Scorpio will also make XB1look better.
It is not a command chip - it is a part of GPU, and it is already done in X1...
https://twitter.com/digital...
Thanks for posting that, Regor L. That's the confirmation of DX12 HW in the XB1 command processor I was referring to.
@RegorL
Like I have meantioned before,"You can't compare the two(X1/scorpio), both systems are completely different in thier approch hardware wise"
Though, you might be right that the x1 also has a command processor under it hood. However, the x1 has an ESRAM while the scorpio don't, and to that note, it will certainly make a world of difference because as it stands the x1 is likely to have a lot more bottleneck than the scorpio. Everything has been reworked on the scorpio which makes it a much better gaming system than X1. So again, you can't compare the two(x1/scorpio).
From the article:
The analysis notes that all the pieces have been further customised by Microsoft, taking them beyond their off-the-shelf PC parts status. Microsoft reportedly “profiled” existing Xbox One games to identify bottleneck in order to avoid them when making Scorpio. The company said that over 60 customisations were made to the GPU pipeline to eliminate areas that negatively affected games’ performance in the past.
https://www.vg247.com/2017/...
Plus they doubled the l2 cache compared to the pro. Quite a few tweaks in addition to the clock boost.
DX12 doesn't take the burden off the CPU, it actually puts more work into the CPU by multi threading most of the work. ( this is a good thing ).
The command chip is brilliant tho.
SD11, MS doubled the L2 cache in the GPU. The CPU still has the same amount of L2 as the OG XB1 does. I made the same mistake too.
I just double checked. Unless the Scorpio has 16MB of L2 cache within the Jag CPU, it has the same 4MB that XB1 and PS4 have already. Can anyone provide a link that shows this 4x increase is true?
The only cache that has been upgraded is the GPU L2, which went from 512KB to 2MB.
@TheCommentator
They were taking about the AMD Ryzen CPU having 16mb of speedy L3 cache. The scorpio doesn't have AMD Ryzen CPU under it hood. And, from what I have gathered from many gaming sites, the scorpio have a jaguar CPU, which only has 4MB of L2 cache. I guessing it was just a rumour, and that's it.
From the article:
Introduction AMD Ryzen processors are now entrenched firmly in the PC firmament. They offer particularly appealing performance-per-dollar if you are able to harness all of the cores and threads. It is usual to equip hugely multithreaded chips with lots of onboard cache that helps to keep the beasts full of data. And Ryzen is no exception, as the eight-core, 16-thread CPUs have a wholesome 16MB of speedy L3 cache to tap into. Yet teasing out the last morsel of performance means running system memory at higher-than-default speeds. The gains may well be marginal, truth be told, though the small price premium for, say, DDR4-3,200 memory over DDR4-2,666 should be worth it. This is exactly why memory manufacturers have been pushing 3,000MHz-plus kits for the Ryzen CPU, whose supporting platforms are now far more stable than at launch a couple of months ago.
https://m.itbnews.info/tag/...
"mediocre improvement in CPU"? LOL!! DX12 is only one of like 12 things that were customized on the Scorpio to help reduce the workload on the CPU and prevent bottleneck issues. Gamingbolt never mentions that for some reason.
I think the majority of the games will be able to run at native 4K, 30fps with hardly any problems.
Isn't the Stardock guy the one that talked in the past about how great the X1 will be and how DX12 will make the X1 so much more powerful? I wouldn't take anything serious that this guy is saying no matter if it's positive or negative what he is saying.
If only. They can't even see what mediocre looks like from the gutter they dwell in.
How to Gamingbolt:
Interviews some random dev*
Posts article on N4G*
"Scorpio/PS4 is *Insert comment here*" -
OompaLoompa Dev
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@ 343_Guilty_Spark: you got downvoted because you're wrong. Microsoft already stated that it was for price AND compatibility reasons. it was very important to them that 100% of Xbox One AND 360 backward compatible games work on Scorpio. so they went with a highly modified Jaguar, they tested it with all the modern engines (like Unreal 4) & made modifications to the Jaguar where they saw fit in order to get rid of all the bottle necks the standard Xbox One had that caused certain games to only reach 720p & 900p (remember how Tomb Raider X1 was 30fps & PS4 was unlocked 60fps... thats also a bottleneck)... now ALL the 1st party games run in native 4K & many of the 3rd party games will also... they stuck with Jaguar because they are going to attempt to hit $399. mark my words.
They would lose money if they price it at $399. No way they'll make profit at that price. Since its a premium product $499 mark my words.
@ ShadowKnight: Sony fans want Scorpio to be $499 so badly because they know Xboxes won't move at that price. they told people "premium" & had Digital Foundry tell people to "expect $500" to set people's expectations high & then they'll undercut everyones expectations for a big E3 reaction. its PR-101. at the end of the day its still a jaguar CPU. a relatively cheap component. if they truly wanted to go "premium" they would've went with Ryzen/Vega but my guess is they wanted to keep the cost down.
@TFxGod6h ago
"ShadowKnight: Sony fans want Scorpio to be $499 so badly because they know Xboxes won't move at that price. they told people "premium" & had Digital Foundry tell people to "expect $500" to set people's expectations high & then they'll undercut everyones expectations for a big E3 reaction. its PR-101. at the end of the day its still a jaguar CPU. a relatively cheap component. if they truly wanted to go "premium" they would've went with Ryzen/Vega but my guess is they wanted to keep the cost down."
The funny thing is he said earlier that $499 is too high for a console (even though over 10 years ago the PS3 was $599) and now thinks there is no way it can be $399. It's obvious he is setting this up so that no matter what it sells at there is no good price, he wants it to fail.
I think the issue with those games reaching 1080p on ps4 vs xbox 1 is more about the GPU instead of the CPU. Isn't the cpu in the Xbox 1 the same as the one in the ps4 , but the Xbox 1's cpu is clocked higher. It's the GPU that is about 50% stronger in the ps4 that is causing the parity.
@Moldybread
You keep going back into the past. Since you like to talk about the past and a different era I'll say this when the ps3 was $599 it struggled at that price for a while until they gave it a price drop. Xbox one is already struggling this generation compared to last generation. So how will they make profit at $399 for each Scorpio they sell? They will lose money at that price. It should be $499 if they want to make profit even though I disagree with that price. Don't forget that was my opinion. Do I want the Scorpio to fail I actually think Microsoft already failed this era compared to the Xbox 360 era. Tbh I don't know what Microsoft can do at this point. The best thing they can do is hope that third-party support will be enough for them to make profit and that the Scorpio resolution is not just a marginal increase compared to the ps4pro. If they make Scorpio only exclusives that would affect the Xbox one install base.
Good old Shadowkinght, wanting to keep putting Microsoft in a no win position. You say it should be$499 but earlier said that's too high for a game console. You won't buy it even if it was$299 so why keep wasting your time and everyone else's time.
Scorpio is a premium product it should cost more than the Pro. What you keep failing to grasp is the Xbox One is still there for the more conservative gamer. But that system doesn't interest you either. Amazing how much you invest in a product that you have no desire to support.
It absolutely will hold it back, anyone who has ever tried to put a more powerful GPU in their PC without upgrading the CPU as well knows that bottlenecking is a real issue. It effects some games more than others to be sure, but it will definitely hold it back compared to what it could do with a decent cpu. Though, I think MS should worry more about acquiring some decent games than bottlenecking tbh.
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As soon as u directly compare pc to console I knew you didn't know what u were talking about 😩
Thats why they added a co-processor that delegates to the GPU in only a few instructions.
The CPU will be fine actually.
In an exclusive interview with GamingBolt, Stardock CEO Brad Wardell revealed that the company had no plans to support the Nintendo Switch, citing the hardware being too different from the other major systems on the market. Wardell did add that Nintendo is one of those systems that doesn't need good third party support to be successful, however- but it looks like his comments went down poorly with some fans regardless.
Only people who are mad are idiots. Nintendo fans don't really seem to care about 3rd party because frankly those games just don't sell so hot on Nintendo. Why should any dev want to throw resources to Nintendo when it's Nintendo themselves who need to prove they give a crap.
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It's a company whose sole purpose is to run their mouth constantly and provide gamingbolt with an endless supply of click bait headlines. I heard they sometimes make games too, but I've never seen one
I was going to say.... What exactly do they make? Also... the switch is just the same as the other platforms to program for. It is powered by Nvidia ....
A PC game developer who consistently wants to downplay consoles just to get their name in the press while they promote their own products, because I'd imagine the bulk of their revenue comes from their tools and game engine, because I never see their games talked about much, even in PC forums.
I guess Star Control would be one that's moderately well known in the PC world.
Wow! Frankly it seems you can't say anything anymore, without someone taking issue. He's a dev not just a gamer. So he above all has to take these kinds of things in account. I admire his initial honestly. But i don't like the fact that he had to later go on Twitter and try to straighten things up all because a few fans got upset. Man this world has really turned to shit. When folks feel like they have to backtrack on prior statements so not to so called offend or piss somebody off..
who are these people?
Never heard of them at all in all these years gaming. They trying to get attention by talking about the Switch.
They're actually pretty good developers who's games release primarily on PC. They're the devs behind Galactic civilisation, sins of a solar empire and offworld trading company.
Don't act like because you've never heard of them that it discredits everything they say.
it does discredit everything they say. A developer no one knows comes out of the blue and start talking like they making a big move in the industry
@OtakuDJK1NG-Rory,
They are only "out of the blue" to morons who spend their time with their heads shoved up Nintendo's ass.
"it does discredit everything they say"
Well, no one knows who you are so everything you've said is also discredited then.... You see the flaw in using fame as a measurement of credibility?
You've also shown your ignorance of the PC gaming scene If you're completely unaware of Stardock titles.
I understand that based on your comment history you're primarily a Nintendo fan (I am the same). But dont act like there isn't a large sphere of gaming that exists outside of where you commonly visit.
I discredit them because all stardock has done is downplay any and every thing console related, from all the companies this gen. DX12, Vulcan, Switch, Any change in mid-gen upgrades, etc. You name it...Wardell has downplayed it. Half the time in a vain attempt at promoting his own back end products of development tools and game engines. Nintendo is just the most recent punching back for them.
I think the guy is knowledgeable, but if he's actually interested in adding to the discussion, he needs to realize gamingbolt is only using him for his easily molded comments to achieve their own ends.
It begs the question, if their games are based on PC architecture, why are we getting almost weekly opinions from them about the different consoles, their features, their power, their games, and what they have to offer?
They are the one's that thought up of digital content distribution before Steam did and Brad Wardell is a big opponent of DRM. They have also made the excellent 4x game series Galactic Civilization as well as the RTS Sins of a Solar Empire.
Do you even game bro?
You would think an independent software developer that has been in business since 1991 would earn a little respect with these kids. Especially considering probably half of the immature comments here are made by people who were not alive in 1991.
Stardock CEO Brad Wardell said that Scorpio's 12GB GDDR5 RAM means that there'll be no real technical limits on the platform's games for a few years.
Still, he said it will take a couple years to fully utilize that and DirectX 12/Vulkan APIs since developers need to have a "core neutral engine" to make the most of these technologies.
More positivity on the road to scorpio. I guess this means loading up assets will be a breeze on scorpio.
Like Mr Wardell said "How many video cards have 8gigs of Gddr5?". No one will seriously fill the need for more ram even at 4K.
Nvidia gave a good comparison last month for what cards run 4K and 5K.
https://lanoc.org/images/re...
Noticed the 4K cards are ones with 8 gigs of GDDR5.
"It'll Take 2 Years To Fully Utilize Its Power" ...By that time PlayStation will have already unveiled (or be close to unveiling) their next home console.
@bumbleforce - "That's awsome then a year after ps5 comes out x2" ---- If (& i stress, IF) PS5 does come out 2yrs after Scorpio, Do you really think Xbox will release Scorpio's successor as soon as 3 years after Scorpio's release?
That's awsome then a year after ps5 comes out x2 will blow it out of the water. Gonna be how it is going forward sorry
But even still it's better than PS4Pro amd by then the next xbox will ne a thing so invalid point really!
It will not take 2 years for 4K assets and any extra graphical features to appear on Scorpio.
You will see all of that this year. No doubt about it.
@Mystogan - "nah, it will probably be 2020. Scorpio 2 will also come in 2020." ---- I'm slightly amazed that people think Scorpio's successor will release so soon
Consoles take a long time in R&D before they are finally released to the public, it also coasts a lot of money to develop... No way Sony will unveil a new console in two years. Sony has deep pockets but outside of the PS line they are still not doing all that great. Share holders would throw a fit it a new system was introduced so soon. Maybe 2020....Maybe. The pro is it for a while, which is fine...It is a good console even if it can't hit native 4k all that often.
then after x2 comes ps6...... I mean come on, if thats the rate then playstation will continue with its success in comparison to xbox. then nintendo will come up with some other thing some time. Just like whats been happening...
soo.....same as usual.
lol RAM isn't the bottleneck. I think 8gb of ram on a console is enough for any game. The bottleneck is the processing components, not the components that carry data and off-load data.
The fact that he says it won't be fully utilized means nothing when Xbox has no AAA exclusive. No developer AAA developer will specifically make a game that uses all the systems RAM. Now if Sony had a system like this they can utilize all of it on God of War, TLoU, Killzone etc.
@uptown:
That is easy, if Sony releases PS5 in 2020, MS releases Scorpio 2 in 2021. The pattern is already set!
What amazes me is how much effort MS put into designing Scorpio. It makes PS4 Pro look almost lazy and low effort by Sony. So I'm glad for the competition.
I almost made 2 post on N4G without a fanBOY ....almost. I guess the PS5 will come out of the gate fully optimized by developers? No? You've no argument fanBOY, you made up in your head becasue you're a fanBOY....sigh.
Probably around the same time as the ps5, the scorpio is an upgrade not a ext gen console.
Your guessing in regards to PS5. The Scorpio will shortly be fact. The defacto Console to play games on.
Yes because theyre not classifying it as a new gen console which is why all the games are also available on the One. Its a premium version just greasing people up for what M$ wants to turn it into. By them saying its not a new gen and using certain words it opens them up to release the next console sooner. This is nothing more than directing the market and going into what they think or want it to be.
"By that time PlayStation will have already unveiled (or be close to unveiling) their next home console."
I love it when people just pull facts out of a hat.
It's hillarious seeing Xboys getting wet on hardware release dates. "We will simply release a more powerful Xbox after every Playstation, that'll show 'em!"
Don't you realize PS4 is not succesful because it offers more power, but because it has the better games library? Don't you want Microsoft to finally start focussing on games instead of relying on 3rd parties? Sure Scorpio will be more powerful than PS4, but will it be the better console to own? At this point, you would be stupid to anticipate the Scorpio without having a PS4 to play all of it's amazing exclusives. Those are the things you should care about, not immature console wars.
@nx
The PS4 was so successful because it was the more powerful system that launched for $100 cheaper then the competition. The first year of sales happened with very few big exclusive games to drive that. It was better multiplats and cheaper price that jumped Sony ahead with the avg consumer, and the biggest buyer is the avg consumer, not the hardcore like a lot of us
@bumbleforce How stupid can you be, to think scorpio 2 is going to blow away the next sony console? Cmon man wtf is that logic? teh scorpio 2 doesn't exist, and wont for a very long time... also, scorpio is a codename lol, scorpio 2 makes no sense. The ps4/one released, then the pro came. Microsoft needed a way to reclaim ground THIS GEN, and will release the beast scorpio. This is an answer this gen, sony have played the right card and will ride out this gen on the ps4 pro, and will absolutely destroy the scorpio by truly starting a next gen, and I would imagine due to the nature of this "tit for tat bs by releasing consoles with more power" sony will be the 1st console to end all future gens by making a console which will be subject to possibly cheaper annual upgrades you can buy to upgrade the base model. Id imagine it'd be like a PClite approach, you cant change it, but they will release something, maybe go with cloud who knows lol! But trust me, all these damn consoles will end badly if it continues, when pc gaming is superior + cheaper per generation cycle. why would I buy an xbox 1 + scorpio in 1 gen when I could just invest in a pc and gain the true experience of full 4k etc. don't say its hugely cheaper either, if I cared so much for 4k id build my own pc, its slightly more expensive sure, but its superior. this gen, x1 + scorpio will have set you close to £1000 + games with gold costs. but yeah, I rambled on, scorpio is microsofts last attempt to gain ground after basically being raped without lube this gen. Its powerful sure, but 3 years from now console gaming will have evolved massively, you can thank the scorpio for this though, and props to Microsoft for this, forcing sony to answer with more!
Nice link. That shows some consensus behind the 8Gig for 4K thinking. The have another 4Gig there that can easily be tapped in the future if needed. OS doesn't really need 4G.
Higher resolution is more dependent on gpu and CPU. Any game out now won't use more than 8gb of system memory for a console. It's only an issue if they try to put next gen games on Scorpio. Anything this gen will be fine.
fatbastard how many meals did you skip in order to save up for your beastly rig?
http://s2.n4g.com/usersav/8...
Good signs of things to come in this article for sure! 😃
I wanted to point out to those of you constantly asking, "Why hasn't DX12 hasnt done anything yet?" when I say that engines need to be built for DX12 to take advantage of DX12 HW... PLEASE read this article. Brad Wardell explains exactly why the XB1's DX12 HW will become much more efficient in the next few years. He says that only his engine is core neutral, and that other devs will still need a few years to catch up to what his engine can do. Why hasn't this happened sooner then?
That's MS' business and they haven't shared it. but that doesn't change the issue of having Brad confirm here what I've maintained all along; DX12 HW inside the XB1 has not been fully exploited yet because the engines don't exist. XB1 is not weak hardware either because of the DX12 accelerators. Brad's statements in this article also serve to strengthen the statements by Turn 10 that programming specifically for Scorpio will make XB1 games look better. Phil said DX12 would make XB1 better at doing the things it was designed to do, right? Put that into context now. XB1 was designed to be DX12 machine, and Phil mentions that too when he said that MS knew what DX12 was doing when they built the XB1.
E3 is just the tip of the iceberg for Scorpio AND XB1's evolution. XB1 will be at least at parity with PS4 in a few years because MS did build an extremely efficient machine. Why do you think the XB1 is virtually silent all the time? There's more juice to squeeze from new engines. When that happens, I'll be right here telling all the dissenters that they should have seen it coming all along.
You may be correct but by then this gen will be over and shouldn't that extra sauce enable VR which is exclusive to Scorpio and shouldn't they be able to keep kinect runnable aswell?
MS developed the XB1 to be a 10 year console, and two years from now we'll only be 6 years into the generation. My point though, is more to prove that MS did build XB1 with more advanced tech inside it than people were willing to admit. Beside you guys think that MS didn't do the same thing to Scorpio too, with 60 improvements to the off the shelf parts? Think about it; Eurogamer couldn't even identify what the CPU was and had to assume it was still Jag.
Sir Bradders, rumor has it that MS already has plans to do just that when they unveil their plans for VR next year. I don't remember where I saw it, but MS was talking about bringing VR to the Xbox. Their words, and they didn't say Scorpio, they said Xbox. Honestly, it could mean anything, but it was an interesting enough statement that it lead me to hypothesize that they may have meant the Xbox Family of devices. I guess we'll see next year when MS talks up VR for real. Also, Kinect already runs on XB1S and likewise on Scorpio with an adapter.
Ju, it's not really hope at this point. If it weren't true, we wouldn't keep getting information that corroborates the notion of efficiency in the XB1 processors waiting for proper engines. Remember when Brad initially said too much about what DX12 would really do for XB1, and then went completely quiet afterwards? The NDA's, the one's nobody believed existed because XB1 was supposedly weak standard PC parts, were real. MS/AMD were also working on Scorpio at that time, and it just makes sense that didn't want the tech to be talked about until it could be exploited. This meant core neutral DX12 engines that could properly support the DX12 HW. Just look at what happened when MS talked about Cloudgine too early and you'll see why it was better not to talk about DX12 at all.
Please Commentator, give it a rest. You got the more powerful next gen console. But the XBO simply is underpowered compared to the PS4. No so fine granulated low latency multithreading will ever push it beyond the PS4. Sure not the Scorpio as a primary platform. I rather think 720p will become the new standard there. Developers will overload the Scorpio version and then try to squeeze this into the XBO in the hope the tools will do the optimization. It's not gonna happen. There is no magical sauce.
Especially when the competition has indeed the much closer to the metal high efficiency low latency kernel.
Nice title. So is there no limit or the limit will be reached in 2 years?
And how exactly does throwing RAM overcome the other parts? You can have 120GB of RAM... won't mean shit if the rest of the system holds it back.
The ancient memory argument simply won't die...
the memory pool is just an illustration of how much information a computer can have 'ready' to be calculated...Scorpio still has a cpu originally intended to run on a battery (it literally is a low TDP laptop part)...
but seriously...w/e, this is nothing new...a dev comes out and claims limitless power because of big amounts of memory feeding a very dated processor...and it's great news as far as the console crowd goes...and that is the way it'll always be...
But that's 4k at ultra, you can hit 4k with as little as 4 GB vram if you play games at medium/high.
so many fanboys in these comments, if you like what sony offer buy a PS4, if you like what microsoft offer, choose an xbox one
then be happy, or if you can afford both?, get both, stop arguing one's better than the other, it's childish
If history has taught us anything, maybe in two years, MS will announce a new console and scrap all support for Scorpio.
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What does 'core neutral' even mean when it comes to game engines? Is that some new buzzword Stardock came up with?
It means that it's a true multicore engine where many things can be processed in parallel to save render time.
All of a sudden an api is thread safe and Ms puts a sticker on it and it's the best thing since sliced bread. Amazing. I guess everybody else are just noobs.
I still want to see some games to actually show what the Scorpio can do before I even think about it. All the horse power in the world doesn't mean squat if you have nothing to show for it.
And before some idiot says "did you even read the article, they said it takes a couple of years, etc." yes I did, and I can say with full confidence there's been hardware upgrades in the past where the power was showcased out the gate; so unless MS is holding something for E3 it's marketing and PR talk.
The games reveal will be at E3. Hopefully you get to see some leaks. But I think if you have seen the latest 'Star Wars BF' trailer, that should give you some idea of the base quality for Scorpio.
What Brad is saying is, it will keep getting better and in 2 years we should see the full quality Scorpio can produce as people get used to using all the cores and managing RAM.
"But I think if you have seen the latest 'Star Wars BF' trailer, that should give you some idea of the base quality for Scorpio. "...it was a CG trailer buddy
@fastbastard11
Nope. I know it looks really good and I understand why some might be led to believe that it's CGI, but it was actually all in engine. Similar to the trailers for the last Star Wars Battlefront game, which also looked incredible, but the final game really did look like that. Of course, the actual gameplay didn't have the cinematic camera angles and scripted scenarios, but the graphical quality was essentially the same.
It's not really accurate. PR speak.
12GB (or the 8 the developers have access too) of ram doesn't really do a whole lot. It's one of those things where if you're filling that much ram with a single (current) game, then chances are your CPU is too slow or your memory bandwidth is too low and the extra space isn't going to stop the performance tanking. Computers can justify having 16, but that's mostly to keep background processes eating all the ram and infringing on what the game needs (a number I've never seen exceed 6gb in actual play.) Considering the Scorpio is using what I have to assume is another AMD Jaguar, "too slow" would definitely be the limiting factor in performance.
No matter what MS (Or sony or anyone else) says, teraflops is not a great measure of the performance of a video card, but even using that as the measure you're basically just looking at a very slightly overclocked RX 480, and it's a great card but not really a 4k card. 4k/60 is really rare at that amount of power, and while 4k/30 is certainly possible most games look just as good and run better at 1080p or 1440p/60fps when you're talking about the viewing distances of 8 to 12 feet (normal viewing distances for modern TVs.)
No 1080p/1440p is not just as good as 4K you can stop. That`s just nonsense.
Microsoft has been direct about 4K telling everyone they designed the system around bottlenecks of xbox one and games running at 900p/1080p can be ported to scorpio by the dev to 4K.
There telling you it will have Native 4K with 4K assets games. Native 4K 60 FPS games. I dont know how anyone could deny this at this point we got Brad Wardell,Gears of war,Forza Devs, and Digital Foundry saying this is happening.
The list of relevant people saying this is happening grows day by day.
Well you're wrong about the RAM thing but i agree that 4k doesn't really look better than 1080p at 8-12 feet as I have witnessed it myself.
I didn't say just as good. I said just as good at typical viewing distances for TVs. I have a 4k TV, the only thing that is obviously better at 4k from my 10 foot viewing distance is particle effects.
And yeah, if I have to pick between 1080p or 1440p with all of the settings maxed, and 4k/30 or 4k/60 with settings turned down, the lower resolutions almost always look better. Rendering super low res textures in 4k still makes them super low res textures, and now you get to see exactly how the don't hold up in great detail. Tomb Raider on the PS4 pro should make this quite obvious.
I didn't say it won't have native 4k games, or native 4k/60fps games. I said they'll look and/or run worse than those same games at 1080p or 1440p. I speak from experience, I have a GPU about as powerful as they say the Scorpio is, I know more or less what it's capable of.
Maybe actually read my comments instead of just responding to things I didn't say.
PS: No, I'm not wrong about the RAM thing. Vram has more or less the same issue. If you're playing games at 4k then there are exceptions, but at 1080p and 1440p the difference between 3,4, 6 and 8 GB of vram is basically non-exsistant, nothing ever fills it, and if it *does* fill it then it's because your GPU is too slow to handle the game and it won't run well anyways (which is why Vram does actually make a difference at 4k, but even then last gen AMD 4k cards had between 1 and 4gb of VRAM because they had a super high memory bandwidth and super high clock speeds and no need for a large amount of storage. )
Dude literally said it was just as good...whats to spin here? You are wrong. Dead wrong about saying some bogus nonsense.
super low res textures in 4K? "Tomb Raider on the PS4 pro should make this quite obvious."
Ps4 pro has no improved textures there the same as ps4 horrible comparison.
https://www.youtube.com/wat...
" I said they'll look and/or run worse than those same games at 1080p or 1440p. "
Not according to Turn10
"We provided a ton of data with ForzaTech, where we actually rendered different stress scenes at different resolutions - 720p, 1080p, 4K - and then stressed different points in the engine: anisotropic filtering, multi-sampling, pushing heavy LODs through, just to try to get a feel for where the different bottlenecks where," says Tector.
"This profiling was just one set of data that the Xbox hardware team had to work with. More data was coming in from other titles, and the scaling results in the move to 4K were looking consistent. "All the PIX captures and analysis and simulation they did proved it out for everyone, not just the people who were going to target 4K60, starting from a point at 1080p60 [like Turn 10] but even the people who haven't gotten to that point yet," continues Tector. "They have other reasons that they aren't going for native resolution maybe and so they've made other trade-offs in their engine and they have other bottlenecks than we would. I think it was great that the model hit such a broad set of different rendering types, it really helped prove it out."
http://www.eurogamer.net/ar...
There forzatech runs at the same framerate as the Xbox One version in 4K.
Turn10 is owned by MS. By definition, they are not trustworthy when talking about MS hardware/software. Chances are, they're literally not allowed to say anything even slightly critical, possibly not allowed to say anything at all without MS approval.
Also, that article doesn't imply what you claim it does.
Forza *already* does 4k/60fps, but if you bother to check there are *serious* sacrifices necessary to do it, including tricks with the framerate that half the framerate of reflections, and extra super low settings you can't even get on PC. What I'm telling you, is that it would look better if it was running at 1080p or 1440p with higher settings. To run it at 4k, they had to completely decimate shadow quality, it's *way* below 1080p.It would look better at a lower resolution and with that extra power diverted to improving shadow quality, texture filtering, draw distance, ect.
It's also a racing game, and racing games are poor examples that are notorious for looking and running better than anything else could with similar hardware power (probably because you spend the entire time on a super narrow track and blow by everything at 90+mph, meaning the system actually has to render very little by comparison and can skimp on detail (like the crowds and anything more than a few meters off the track)
so let me get this straight, 1080p looked better then 900p for the last 4 years according to every sony fan on here and neogaf but now when the scorpio can do native 4k, now and only now you guys say there is no difference between 1080p and 4k native. you guys are hilarious
@Princess_Pilfer
That's not really accurate. Just because games aren't using 8gb of memory right now doesn't mean they can't or won't use it in the future. Higher quality assets can really benefit from that extra RAM. LOD and pop-in can also be improved since more can be held in memory at any given time and LOD changes don't have to be as aggressive.
It's similar to what we see in modding PC games. More VRAM allows you to use much higher quality assets, which can totally transform the look of a game yet often doesn't incur much of a performance hit.
Scorpio has had a concomitant increase in its bandwidth so that isn't an issue.
With high end PCs, Scorpio and PS4 Pro all in the market more and more developers will start taking advantage of them.
I have 2 980tis, so I have 6 gb of vram as it doesn't stack. If I play Doom and put the texture quality on Nightmare, the game crashes randomly because I run out of Vram. I believe you are referring to normal ram, of which I have 64gb, because why not, and I have seen page files hit 24gb. But yeah, 12gb is too much ...
@bolimekurac
All things being equal, 1080p is superior to 900p, and 4k is superior to both. When we're talking about 4k gaming on anything less than dual 1080tis, all things are not rarely equal. Not only did I not say there is no difference, I outright stated that there *IS* a difference and then described how the differences make 1080p or 1440p look better.
@Starchild
You still have to be able to process that data and get it on screen. In most cases, if you've filled 4+gb of vram your video card is not good enough for whatever you're doing. (and not the game just saying that it's calling all of it, because games will call all of it just because maybe they might need it at some point, and then half of it will just sit there not doing anything.) Your card should be able to get it out of the ram and on screen quickly enough for it to not need to sit there taking up space. If it can't, you get popin and/or stutters no matter how much vram you have. You can look up benchmarks and check. In the vast majority of cases, there is virtually no performance difference between lower and higher vram modles of gpu, and what few you find are almost always at 4k with weak/mid range cards that can't cope anyways, or are mirrors edge catalyst which had the problem fixed with a patch.
No, they won't. At least, not any more than they are already. It's a requirement of both the Scorpio and PS4 pro that all the games run on the old consoles, so they kinda can't. Also, they could have been doing the same thing for PC games this whole time, and haven't been, because they're targeting the lowest end hardware on the market to maximise potential buyers.
Again, it's the speed of the CPU itself. It's still a Jaguar as far as we know, and Jaguars are still garbage. A slightly better Jaguar is still a Jaguar, and it's still going to result in CPU bottle necks.
Just FYI. The PS4 has 5GB available, Pro 5.5GB. And a new compression format to offset size and bandwidth short comings.
The 8GB probably won't all be filled with uncompressed textures else most of that bandwidth will be used shuffling those around. But it sure is great to have headroom. Also, it can be used for caching,, level streaming and all that. And of course more higher res render targets. It sure is an advantage. At the same time, the size might just have been a side-effect to reach the higher bandwidth. I'm still curious about the pricing, tbh.
yet the same dude came out and just said DX12 wont do a thing for xbox one, he was talking about pc the whole time, guy is a tool of the highest degree
Essentially, Brad is telling Sony they should support his product. What's next? Nyko CEO telling us that Sony should certify their PS4 components?
I don't think Vulkan is ready for prime time yet?
Sony should do whatever's best for performance. They could integrate Mantle technology, like Vulkan did, if it will help. Word has been Mantle wouldn't help much since the PS4 API was already close to the metal.
Edit: I get the point Brad is making, support Vulkan not for performance, but to make cross-platform development easier. That's a move you'd make if your platform was lacking for games.. Since PS4 is dominant, they can get away with calling the shots here.
"I hate OpenGL (laughs). They’re old, their current one is just archaic. I don’t want to have to learn that, my brain is already full of OS2 and Linux crap, I don’t want to learn yet another short-term API."
Uhhh...
Initial release: January 1992
Stable release: 4.5 / August 11, 2014
What? It's neither a short-term API nor is it any less archaic than DirectX...
Strange to see so much hate. I think everyone missed the positive part of the article which both PS4 and xone owners should be very happy about,
"With the PlayStation 4 and the Xbox One they’re not even remotely scratching the surface for what people can do...they’re written for last-gen but updated for this gen...this gen’s graphics are still very far behind where they’re going to be.”