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230°

Phil Harrison on PS3 Graphics, Power Supply, Blu-ray Performance

"At Sony's Gamer's Day event today, GamePro editor Vicious Sid had the chance to grab a few minutes with Sony's PS3 frontman, Phil Harrison. We touched on several topics: Blu-ray disc speeds, internal power supplies, and that nagging question -- is the PS3 graphically inferior to the Xbox 360?"

THAMMER17144d ago

It makes you think differently about their logic. Now the way he worded:

Harrison: ....and so that's why they can't do 1080p full frame. Because the image has to be in the frame buffer and a full 1080p image is 8 megabytes, so you can't double buffer.

I wonder if this is true^^^^^^^^? It is a very bold statement.

Mainly because he also said this:

Harrison: No, the way that Xbox 360 works is that they have 512 MB of memory, same as PlayStation 3. But they have general purpose memory, rather than system-specified memory. But they only have a 10 MB internal frame buffer...

8 ^ I

HHHMMMMMM

AuburnTiger7143d ago

i'm with Thammer on this one, what the heck is a bouble buffer?

lalaland7143d ago

But it is only a half-truth on Phil's part.

Double buffering is there to make games look smooth -- if they weren't there, the image would look flickering. Basicly you show one frame (buffer 1) while you draw on the other one (buffer 2). Once you are finished drawing buffer 2, you switch buffers, show buffer 2, and start to draw on buffer 1 again. You switch when the scanline has just finished showing the entire frame (called vertically lock), to avoid showing half of buffer 1 and half of buffer 2.

While Phil is right you can't fit an entire doublebuffer, or other buffers for framebuffer effects in 1080p, developers are trying to use a tiling technique, where they shift parts of frame in and out of mainmemory, before they finally assembles everything to be shown on the TV.

This isn't a "free" way of doing stuff as it is taxing on the mainmemory bus (22GB/s), and although it is difficult to code in an effective way, it is possible. So one day we will see games utilizing the eDRAM framebuffer effects to the max -- the question is when...

Retard7144d ago

Came out the 19th, and someone already posted this.

TheXgamerLive7144d ago

than the ps3". He quickly didn't touch that one and moved on to buffer memory, which was only a partial truth.

But I mean the guy isn't going to come out and speak the truth when the truth will hurt him is he?

Sidherich7143d ago (Edited 7143d ago )

actually it was a non-truth ;)

the 360 framebuffer works different than that.

actually phils math was already off when he said that a 1080p frame is 8mb in video memory.

the math goes something like this:

Back Buffer:
Pixels * FSAA Depth * ( Pixel Colour Depth + Z Depth )
Front Buffer:
Pixels * (Pixel Colour Depth + Z Buffer Depth)
Total = Front Buffer + BackBuffer

1920x1080pixel * 2x32Bit/pixel (32Bit Color Depth and 32Bit Z-Buffer/Stencil Depth)
= 2073600 * 8 Byte
= 16588800 Byte
= 16200 kB
= 15,82 MB

And that is only the BackBuffer without any AA. with AA you can either double (2xAA) or make it 4x (4xAA) to get your total memory usage. Actually on the 360 only the backbuffer is in eDram. The Front Buffer is in Main Memory (UMA)

Maybe Phil left out the Z-Buffer/Stencil or he just computed with 16Bit color depth (ugly as hell) and 16Bit dephth/stencil (artifacts).

Double Buffering means that you have one back buffer and one front buffer. Front buffer displays the graphic while the next frame is drawn to the back buffer. once the back buffer is ready it is copied to the front buffer for display. Having no double buffering would be noticable immediately as it would be a terrible flickering (even the oldest video games like doom used some sort of double buffering).

a simple 720p frame with 2xAA wouldnt fit into eDram as well so MS does a trick. They tile the frame. Imagine it as dividing the 720p picture into 2 pieces. one piece is the left half of the screen and the other one is the right half of the screen. In reality the algorith that seperates the frames is alot more complex but the core principles are the same.

First you render the left half of the screen in eDram, resolve the AA samples and copy 640x720x32Bit to VideoRam which is UMA (unified memory architecture) in the case of the 360. Then it renders the right part of the frame in eDram, resolves AA and then copies it to VideoRam making it one full 720p frame with 2xAA.

This tiling process has been highly optimized and doesnt impact performance. This tiling would allow the 360 to render 1080p with 4xAA (64 MB for the backbuffer!!!) but if that would increase visuals that much i doubt.

There actually is another advantage with that eDram and thats the reason MS choosed that way. This way only texture lookups, vertex lookups and that final copying from eDram to VideoRam are actually done on the main memory bandwidth. Texture and vertex lookups are cheap and the backbufer to frontbuffer copy is efficient because it is a large chunk of data.

There are however a few things you do that are more expensive in terms of memory bandwidth.
alpha/depth/stencil or Anti-Aliasing (more samples that need to be blended into one final fragment). these computations are done on the 265GB memory line between GPU and eDram thus relieving the main memory bandwidth.

damn i hate it how i plan to write only two two lines and end up with (a few) more. kudos to the one actually reading all this :D

AuburnTiger7143d ago

"a simple 720p frame with 2xAA wouldnt fit into eDram as well so MS does a trick. They tile the frame. Imagine it as dividing the 720p picture into 2 pieces. one piece is the left half of the screen and the other one is the right half of the screen. In reality the algorith that seperates the frames is alot more complex but the core principles are the same."

Could you say that this could be considered 720i even though it's not really interlaced but more "half-laced"?

THAMMER17143d ago

Is really a good thing. Cool

lalaland7143d ago

"Could you say that this could be considered 720i even though it's not really interlaced but more "half-laced"?"

No, unless you do fieldrendering. But as that is very complicated most if not all developers choose to render the entire frame. So although only a 720i signal is transmitted to the TV, internally they render a full 720p image.

But you are right that the devs basicly splits the image in two, but the important thing to notice is, the image is assembled again before it is sent to the TV.

Sidherich7143d ago

its still a pure 720p frame when displayed. The tiles are assembled together again BEFORE sent to the TV set. with 720i there would at every time only half of the picture sent to the TV set.

Daewoodrow7143d ago

Sid mate, i'm jealous of your bubbles. So i'll go ahead and try and get you another one.
Top class mate, keep it up.

+ Show (4) more repliesLast reply 7143d ago
Mikey_Gee7143d ago (Edited 7143d ago )

......... THAT WAS FUKN AWSOME DUDE !!!!

Well written and very informative. Actually made a good deal of sense to me believe it or not.

Regardless ..... I think a TRUE 1080p will for sure make me future proof for a good bit and at least the technology is at my hands when it IS INDEED taken full advantage of.

Once gain ....... HUGE PROPS DUDE !!

Very nice post indeed !!!

I even copied and pasted it in my "TO KEEP" files.

THAMMER17143d ago (Edited 7143d ago )

WOW LOL

Show all comments (29)
60°

Final Fantasy X 25th Anniversary Website Launches With New Nomura Artwork and Merchandise

Square Enix launches Final Fantasy X 25th anniversary site, revealing new Nomura art, books, music releases, and merchandise.

Read Full Story >>
twistedvoxel.com
-Foxtrot16d ago

Look I know VIII has its issues and all that but how on earth can the do big anniversary events with new artwork and merchandise for VII, IX and X yet VIII got sweet f*** all.

They could have given it something during its 25th anniversary yet all it got was a single Happy Anniversary post on their social media.

solideagle16d ago

they should know that we are OG fans of VIII as it sold truckload as well. not as much as VII or X. I personally didn't like IX but X and VI are my personal fav.

Shadow Hearts 2 covenant is another game I love. I hope one day someone can make remake, I would be delighted

Relientk7716d ago

Final Fantasy VIII is great and you are always the first to defend it in the comments

40°

15 Years Ago, Mortal Kombat (2011) Saved Gaming’s Biggest Fighting Franchise

A brutal reset, a smarter story, and a return to what made it great—Mortal Kombat (2011) revived the series.

Read Full Story >>
fortressofsolitude.co.za
italiangamer25d ago

"Gaming’s Biggest Fighting Franchise"

Press X to (seriously) doubt.

DarXyde23d ago

Underrated comment. I used to hate that game so much that any time my siblings asked me to play it, I just picked Hom and shut myself down mid-match.

Soy23d ago

And then MK1 killed it again.

DivineHand12523d ago (Edited 23d ago )

15 years went by so fast. I remember playing through the story mode at launch.

90°

PlayStation legend Shuhei Yoshida says Jim Ryan fired him because he didn't listen to him

Why did Sony push Shuhei Yoshida out of his role leading PlayStation's first-party games? He'd overseen some huge successes. Well, apparently, he didn't listen.

Read Full Story >>
eurogamer.net
Relientk7724d ago

Yeah I can see that for sure. Shuhei Yoshida should have been in charge not Jim Ryan.

Cacabunga24d ago

It should be free highway for him now.. but Sony are too stupid to see this, especially that moron Hulst

S2Killinit24d ago (Edited 24d ago )

Wtf why all that anger. PlayStation is dominating on every level. Besides I think there is a little more to hiring a CEO than just who is available. Its not like its a athlete your team wants to buy.

neutralgamer199224d ago

S2Killinit

live service failures, chasing trends, closing studios. yes dominating

Cacabunga24d ago

Sony is Dominating because competition is not existing. Compared to previous gens this is the poorest in terms of software offerings.

Last gen we got Uncharted 4 Lost Legacy and TLOU2 from ND alone.

This is so far a remasters gen, with no competition to lift up the quality

1nsomniac24d ago (Edited 24d ago )

..."PlayStation is dominating on every level"....

...Really???

PlayStation are soon heading into a new generation in the not to distant future. They currently have the worst customer satisfaction they've ever sustained as a company. The company is heading for a huge crash while at the same time they'll need to be planning how they are going to try and win back that favour and the build up to their new releases.

Yes financially they're winning but they're going to have to ride out this complete public corporate disaster. No one has faith in the company or the product anymore. They've damaged their public image so much this generation. Greed can kill anyone.

medman23d ago

Hulst is a disaster......

+ Show (2) more repliesLast reply 23d ago
blacktiger24d ago

He would've done the same thing and fire Jim Ryan and Shuhei would be the villain. Why?
Because Elite creates the narrative and distraction for gamers, users and citizens.

Outside_ofthe_Box24d ago

More confirmation that Jim Ryan is the culprit for what has happened to Sony. Hulst needs to go too. What sucks is that a lot of the good top heads at Sony are no longer there. I wish that guys that were forced out prematurely by Dumbo Jimbo like Shuhei and Layden came back.

robtion23d ago

Yep. Yoshida was responsible for bringing one of the best games of this generation to playstation (Stellar Blade). He is an actual gamer and is in touch with what gamers want (creative, fun games, not GaaS and agenda pushing). He also seems like a genuinely nice guy if you watch some interviews. Of course they got rid of him.

darthv7224d ago

Makes you wonder if MS even thought about hiring him after Phil and Sarah were leaving. He certainly couldn't make their situation any worse.

Agent7524d ago

Microflop. After Windows XP and Xbox 360, it all went floppy.

S2Killinit24d ago

Floppy 😆
No pun intended

badz14924d ago

Yoshida for President! Jim Ryan was and always be a hack! Sony should get Shu back

Lightning7724d ago

All the gamer/consumer lead heads are gone across PS and Xbox. shuhei gone phil's gone (questionable) but gone. The future of gaming is somewhat uncertain across the board.

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